More new Necron goodness.

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More new Necron goodness.

Postby RAMSEY » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:04 pm

He's another scoop from Beasts of War.

The Megalith. Sounds like an Apoc vehicle.

http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40 ... -revealed/
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:18 pm

It sounds more and more like the Necrons will become the big anti-vehicle army in 40k.

Scarabs reduce the armor value of vehicles by 1 for each hit they inflict in combat. This can quickly make a razorback parking lot armor 5-6 and turn every standard warrior into a tankhunting monster.

One named character can take over any vehicle within 18" on a 3+ and shoot it's weapons as if it were the Necron players vehicle - and it counts as stationary even if it moved. This will give GK players pause to bring a Stormraven onto the tabletop lest the Necrons turn those mindstrike missiles on the GK players very own army.


My first reaction is to like the new tactics of the Necrons. Maybe it will force more balanced lists to emerge. Balanced between vehicles and foot units.
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Postby Redbeard » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:35 pm

Is this more R-P-S strategy, or a niche to be filled?

Dark Eldar massacre foot armies, so mech-up?
Necrons massacre vehicle armies, so foot-slog it?

Is there a balance anymore, or is this sort of design simply leading to R-P-S events where you just have to hope you don't play the archetype that kills you?
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Postby muwhe » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:42 pm

Ramesy,

I hope you realize that one is a gag posted ages ago.

....

I see some interesting things in the Necron rumors and depending on points should over a good counter to the Space Wolves and Grey Knight builds that are dominate at the moment.
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Postby seahawk » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:43 pm

The balance is to have some of both, so that it doesn't matter what you face?
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:43 pm

Redbeard wrote:Is this more R-P-S strategy, or a niche to be filled?

Dark Eldar massacre foot armies, so mech-up?
Necrons massacre vehicle armies, so foot-slog it?

Is there a balance anymore, or is this sort of design simply leading to R-P-S events where you just have to hope you don't play the archetype that kills you?



As a player, I feel you can take list building in oneof two ways. You can go for the extreme build and hope for no bad match ups or you could go for balance and hope your generalship can carry youto victory against an extreme build.

Dark Eldar builds can be devastating to foot units and an all foot army would have a tough time versus Those Dark Eldar builds. Those DE builds also have a very tough tine against mech IG and mech GK builds.

Right now there is no hard counter to all mech GK builds. Maybe Necrons will become the hard counter to those types of builds. All mech builds will have to put some resources into a foot screen element to ward off scarabs. This should increase diversity in the field.

Of course someone could gamble and go for an all me he'd build to have an advantage against those lists who try for balance, but it's a gamble.


I feel there needed to be something to try and put a lid on the mech lists and this might be a better way than having wholesale rules changes in 6th edition.
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Postby muwhe » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:24 pm

Absolutely Fred,
I tend to like to look at a codex and ask what does it do well and maximize it … along with accepting whatever weaknesses exist within the army. I'm going to live by the sword or die by it.

The other option is to certainly do what a codex does well, but then shift ones attention to whatever weakness a book might have and look to mitigate it or lessen the impact by some savvy unit selections or play style.

I'm hopeful that the Necron update shifts the meta of the game. From what I have read seems like there might be some potential.
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Postby RAMSEY » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:27 pm

muwhe wrote:Ramesy,

I hope you realize that one is a gag posted ages ago.


Shhh. People are still posting.
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Postby Redbeard » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:16 am

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:As a player, I feel you can take list building in oneof two ways. You can go for the extreme build and hope for no bad match ups or you could go for balance and hope your generalship can carry youto victory against an extreme build.

Dark Eldar builds can be devastating to foot units and an all foot army would have a tough time versus Those Dark Eldar builds. Those DE builds also have a very tough tine against mech IG and mech GK builds.

Right now there is no hard counter to all mech GK builds. Maybe Necrons will become the hard counter to those types of builds. All mech builds will have to put some resources into a foot screen element to ward off scarabs. This should increase diversity in the field.



Some armies cannot do 'balance' as you describe. I guess they're just SOL. And, while claiming that adding a foot-screen element to a mech list might improve performance against scarabs, it flies in the face of the theory that states you're better against the majority of opponents if you can avoid giving them targets for half their weapons, or, saturate their ability to handle one type of unit.

Taking Dark Eldar as an example, with their venom spam. A hybrid list gives those venoms something to do while the dark lances are popping your other vehicles. You have reduced the number of vehicles in your army so that the Dark Eldar player has a reasonable hope of emptying all your transports in a turn or two, instead of being forced to prioritize and leave some some mobility until turn 4.

I don't see a hybrid list as being balanced, I see it as being more vulnerable to the majority of armies out there. If I have to give up games to Dark Eldar to win games against Necrons, that's R-P-S, and we're back to hoping to predict the field correctly and not get the bad matchup.
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Postby CaptKaruthors » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:42 am

I think IG will still kick the Necrons ass though. Looks like the stat lines of most of their weapons remains unchanged...and the Monolith was hit with the nerf bat. With warriors going to a 4+ save...I think IG really have Necrons at a disadvantage. IG have access to more AP4 or less weapons than most armies.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:52 am

Redbeard,

I have had great success with this hybrid BA build

HQ - Librarian

EL - priest
EL - 5 TH/SS termies in land raider

TR - 5 marines, lazorback
TR - 5 marines, lazorback
TR - 5 marines, lazorback
TR - 10 assault marines

FA - Typhoon
FA - Typhoon

HV - Vindicator
HV - Predator


I have a majority of meched units but a 12 man jump pack squad. Now against the venom spam army I can go toe to toe with the DE vehicles with my vehicles. I can leave my foot sloggers in reserve to make the venom shots useless in the early game.

The same type of strategy can be used with most hybrid lists. Protect the footsloggers early, by reserving or putting them in a non-dedicated transport. Make sure you have enough guns to do some damage to enemy tanks before the footsloggers become active.

I feel a Hybrid list is the most powerful list to make. It can take advantage of your opponents weakness in each game.

Let's go back to the DE venom spam army. If a DE list spams venom's to much that can leave them vulnerable to enemy mech units. Conversely if the DE go to heavy on the lances, then your foot units will be at an advantage.

Target the few lances in a DE list and your tanks will rule the game. Target the long range splinter weapons and your foot elements will have the edge.

I do not agree that all armies are hosed. Some lists might get the shaft, but that means those armies must change thier units.

Yes even Bugs and Daemons can beat a DE venom spam list. The goal isn't to get those lists to beat the DE every time, but to get thyem up to a 50/50 chance in a tournament pairing with varied missions. Some will argue with me on this, but this is what I believe.



Now another thing to consider is that even though the meta might say units X have been nerfed by a new counter, that does not follow that everyone will abandon those units right away.

It's one thing to say GK armies will kill death stars, but the SW death star player might not have gotten the memo and he stubbornly refuses to change. Meanwhile you change you list to factor in fewer TWC because you figure everyone knows GK trumps them. Now you face the guy who still brought TWC and you haveno counter. It's a guessing game with no end!!!


Strong list building is the key to voctory.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:55 am

CaptKaruthors wrote:I think IG will still kick the Necrons ass though. Looks like the stat lines of most of their weapons remains unchanged...and the Monolith was hit with the nerf bat. With warriors going to a 4+ save...I think IG really have Necrons at a disadvantage. IG have access to more AP4 or less weapons than most armies.



That's true the reduced armor save will hurt, but now the Necrons get their WBB role vs. everything. Str 8 weapons or power weapons do not negate it and a Res Orb brings the WBB roll back to a 4+. 4+ cover plus a 4+ WBB roll (5+ if the res orb isn't there) means there might be more necrons surviving than originally thought.
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Postby seahawk » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:54 am

They won't always get a cover save...so the Necrons generally getting only one save now hurts them.
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Postby SmokWawelski » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:44 pm

I think that 8 tank chassis with 11 guys in the open (I assume one IC goes with Assault Marines, or do they both start in transports?), or in reserves, is not really a "hybrid" list...
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Postby Redbeard » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:24 pm

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:I have had great success with this hybrid BA build
...


Yes, that works because Blood Angels are marines, and marines are the flexible army. Marines can assault the shooty ones and shoot the assaulty ones too. That's the defining aspect of Marines; they're not the best at anything, but they're okay at everything.

Other armies simply are not designed to be that flexible. Tau, for example, cannot build a successful CC army. (It's debatable if they can make a successful shooty army in the current meta). Nids cannot build a mech army.

You may be right, a hybrid army might be the best. But not every codex can field a viable hybrid army. And while it's okay to then call those codexes second-tier (or worse), that doesn't help the guy who has models for that army and doesn't have marines.

As for the army list you posted, you're also leveraged in one direction (anti-elite/mech) expecting not to play a real horde army. What do you have to scare 150 orks backed with lootas to drop your vindi and speeders early? Green tide may also not be the top-tier army of the day, but, unless I'm missing something, you don't have the tools to cope with it should it plop down in front of you. You're hoping not to have that matchup.

Strong list building is important, but you will always have to make tradeoffs based on what you reasonably expect to face.
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