Multiple Barrage Templates

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Multiple Barrage Templates

Postby YeezyMozart » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:37 am

Hey Everyone,

During the last AWC there was a rules dispute that I wanted to bring up to the community.

When a player fires multiple blasts weapons with the barrage special rule such as a Thunderfire Cannon. Can the user decide to fire them all independently rolling 2D6 scatter for each one or are the templates all mandatory flips from the original template?


I will provide my opinion on the rule after I receive some feedback as to not sway anyone before they have a chance to investigate themselves.
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Re: Multiple Barrage Templates

Postby Nurglecron » Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:38 pm

I remember the debate, and in my opinion, no, the gun cannot fire like a normal Blast weapon (that is, independently rolling scatter per shot on the gun). Here's how I read it:

If a unit has the Barrage special rule, it can choose to fire directly or indirectly, as he was saying. This I agree with.

However, all points under the Multiple Barrages section in the Barrage USR section have to be followed, whether you fire directly or indirectly. Choosing one mode or the other does not remove the Barrage rule from the weapon itself, and therefore, all shots from the same weapon flip off of the first.

In fact, the way it is worded seems to indicate that you place and scatter the first marker from the first gun, and then scatter ALL Barrage shots from the unit. So if you have 3 TFCs, the 11 next shots should all scatter based off of the initial scattered marker, not each gun in the unit at a time. I didn't know that one.

So yeah, in short, firing Directly does not remove the Barrage type from the weapon and does not change the scatter actions of the following shots.
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Re: Multiple Barrage Templates

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:24 pm

Under Blast rules, multiple blasts

Part 2

"If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Blast special rule, scatter each shot, one at a time, as described above and determine how many hits are scored with each individual blast marker."


Under Barrage

Part 1

"All Barrage weapons use the blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast weapons, as indicated by their profile, with the following exceptions."

The book then outlines how to resolve firing a barrage weapon 'indirectly' or at a target out of line of site by placing the blast template, rolling the scatter die and 2d6 and not subtracting the BS of the firer and instead scattering e full distance if a hit is not rolled. Then under the heading Multiple Barrages...

"If a unit fires more than one shot with the Barrage special rule, they fire together as follows:

(Part 3)

The Barrage weapon closest to the unit fires first. Place the blast marker over the target, then roll for scatter as described above"

I contend that the the Barrage section allows Barrage weapons to use the rules for blast weapons as in Part 1.

I contend that the Blast rules outline how multiple blasts are played in Part 2

I contend the rules for multiple Barrages only apply to firing the barrage weapon 'indirectly' and not directly (as a blast) because the wording in Part 3 states to "roll for scatter as described above" which refers to firing indirectly in the Barrage rules. Since I am not firing indirectly I am allowed to subtract my BS from the scatter and I am then following the rules for Blast and not Barrage.

Yes there is a section on multiple barrages, however that section only applies to firing indirectly. I contend the barrage rule only allows you to fire indirectly. The barrage rules makes one exception to this and that is to fire directly at a seen target. When that happens you do not follow the barrage rules anymore and instead follow the blast rules as stated in Part 1.

Multiple barrages only allows scatter to occur as "described earlier" which is to scatter the full distance shown. If I fire multiple barrages I have to follow the multiple barrage rules which do not allow a reduction of scatter by BS. If I see a target I can choose not to follow the multiple barrage rules and instead follow the multiple blast rules as outlined by this passage:

"All Barrage weapons use the blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast weapons, as indicated by their profile, with the following exceptions"

The only exceptions listed are how to fire the shot at a target out of line of site. That is the only exception that follows so when I fire at a target in line of site I don't use the barrage rule anymore and instead use the blast rule.
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Re: Multiple Barrage Templates

Postby Nurglecron » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:56 pm

Your assumption is that Barrage = Indirect Firing. This assumption is false.

Barrage is a subtype of Blast. You can fire Barrage shots Indirectory or Directly. Either way, it uses the rules in the Barrage USR.

These seem to be the sections you are concerned about:

a)
All Barrage weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast weapons, as indicated by their profile, with the following exceptions:


b)
Barrage weapons can fire indirectly. This means they can fire at a target that they do not have line of sight to, as long as the target is beyond their minimum range (if applicable). When firing indirectly, the Ballistic Skill of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance; unless a Hit! is rolled on the scatter dice, the blast marker always scatters a full 2D6". If a Barrage weapon has line of sight to its target it can fire directly, even if the target is within its minimum range.


c)
• The Barrage weapon closest to the target unit fires first. Place the blast marker over the target, then roll for scatter as described earlier.
• Once the first marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit. If an arrow is rolled, place the marker in the direction indicated so that it is next to and touching the edge of the first marker placed (see diagram below).


a) is clear enough. Follow the rules from the Blast USR, except modified by the rest of the Barrage USR.
b) is situational. If you can't see the target and fire indirectly, you still can fire but you scatter the full distance. If you can see the target, your (first) shot follows the same rules as Blast. However, whether you can see the target or not, the weapon still retains the Barrage USR.
c) is the section that discusses multiple shots. Regardless of the firing type you chose in section b), you still follow the rules of this section. These are rules for Barrage, and as stated before, these are still Barrage USR shots.

Section b) is just a portion of the Barrage USR. It does not dictate whether or not you use the rules in the rest of the USR. The only thing firing indirectly changes is whether or not you scatter the full 2d6" on the initial shot. It does not make the rest of the USR void.
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Re: Multiple Barrage Templates

Postby Frankthetank » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:01 pm

I Agree with the nurglecron. I do not think there is a better explanation of the rule than what he has provided.
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Re: Multiple Barrage Templates

Postby DCannon4Life » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:31 am

If you have multiple barrage-blast templates originating from the same unit, you roll to scatter the first and the remainder are flips off of the original.

No, I'm not going to quote from the book. It's been this way through all of 6th and 7th ed.

Bonus: Only the nearest 'gun' in a barrage unit needs be in range. The rest will flip off of that template. And, only the nearest gun (and a crewman within 2" of that gun) need to have LoS in order to reduce scatter.
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Re: Multiple Barrage Templates

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:09 pm

I do believe in 6th edition if a weapon classified as barrage fired it always scattered the full amount of the dice and in no circumstances did the BS of the firer reduce the scatter (even if you saw the target).

In 3rd-5th and again in 7th the BS of the firer reduced the scatter if the target was in LOS.

The rules for barrage have changed over time.
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Re: Multiple Barrage Templates

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:17 pm

My problem is the wording of the first sentence which states all barrage follow the rules for blast weapons with the following exceptions.

Those exceptions only describe firing at units out of LOS. Those exceptions do not say to flip the template if the unit is in LOS. You might say you need permission to NOT flip the template with multiple shots and I say that permission is granted with the opening sentence of the barrage rules which say to play it like a blast, except when you can't see the target.

To be honest the weapon becomes MUCH more powerful if we all the flip rule. Cover is ignored much easier with that rule so the str6 profile can be used more often and still deny cover saves. The flip rule makes all the shots hit the side armor of a vehicle at all times which is more powerful than hitting the front. Also the BS 6 of the Techmarine gunners makes hitting with the initial shot as good as space marines shooting with a 1" scatter or less occurring 70% of the time. Also the flip rule lets 12 templates walk up to 30 inches away from the initial shot and hit every in between. I think my interpretation is the least powerful for the weapon.

I don't think this is as black and white as some people think
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Re: Multiple Barrage Templates

Postby Nurglecron » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:01 pm

It really is black and white. And you're right, the correct interpretation is actually better than the way you're trying to view it.

Under Multiple Barrages, it says, and I'll quote again:

The Barrage weapon closest to the target unit fires first. Place the blast marker over the target, then roll for scatter as described earlier.


Note the word first. This is the first shot. It follows the rules above. Which say

When firing indirectly, the Ballistic Skill of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance; unless a Hit! is rolled on the scatter dice, the blast marker always scatters a full 2D6". If a Barrage weapon has line of sight to its target it can fire directly, even if the target is within its minimum range.


Note that this says "fires indirectly or directly" not "use the rules or ignore them".

Multiple Barrages then says:

Once the first marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit. If an arrow is rolled, place the marker in the direction indicated so that it is next to and touching the edge of the first marker placed (see diagram below).


There is no question about what happens next. You roll the first shot. You place the marker. For subsequent shots, this bullet point tells you what to do in no unclear words. Place so it is touching the edge of the first marker.


Also, to further indicate this point, the wording in the Barrage USR:

All Barrage weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast weapons, as indicated by their profile, with the following exceptions

Emphasis mine.

The sections in question are called Multiple Blasts and Multiple Barrages. It is very clear that the term "exceptions" applies here.


I mean seriously, you're right, this way of doing Barrage is not only correct, but also much better. If you get good flips and Hits, you can pick and choose the maximum number of hits possible. Barrage is, in fact, one of the best rules a piece of artillery can have for this exact reason. So I'm not sure why you are trying to handicap it with a poor interpretation.
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Re: Multiple Barrage Templates

Postby eltrain728 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:31 am

The advantage would be if you have a really bad scatter on the first rather than walking it back you can just roll a new scatter. It cuts the variance down quite a bit.

I think the debate really centers on whether or not the barrage rules are maintained when firing directly. I haven't personally looked it up yet.
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