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Grenades in Assault

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:26 am
by Lord Baerion
I was watching a Frontline gaming battle report the other day and Reece assaulted with a unit into a vehicle and had all of the models throw their Krak grenades. I read and re-read the rules on grenades and can find no rule that states that more than 1 model may use a grenade in the shooting or assault phases.

Is this a tournament specific FAQ or something?

Re: Grenades in Assault

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:02 am
by DCannon4Life
During the assault phase, each model may use a (single) Krak grenade vs. a vehicle or monstrous creature (or gargantuan creature). It's true you can only throw one during the shooting phase, but in close combat, the krak (and Eldar Plasma ) grenades have a close combat profile. I'll look it up in the BRB if you need it.

Re: Grenades in Assault

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:41 am
by Lord Baerion
I see the profile of the grenade, but I didn't see any rule to supersede the rule stating only one grenade can be used.


Under Grenades of the 41st Millenium:

Some grenades can be used to make shooting attacks or attacks in the fight sub-phase, albeit to different effect. Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase


This is directly from the rulebook and nothing under krak or plasma grenades says anything about the ability to throw more than one grenade. The bold section is bolded in the book and not by me.

Clearly states that a unit can only throw one grenade per phase, so shooting or assault unless I'm missing a FAQ or something.

Re: Grenades in Assault

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:24 pm
by DCannon4Life
Interesting! I'll look into it!

Re: Grenades in Assault

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:05 pm
by DCannon4Life
Ok: p 180 of the BRB. 3rd paragraph, bold, referring to 'some' grenades that can be used against vehicles (buildings), gun emplacements and MCs: "A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on its profile or any bonuses". So, still quite legal to make X number of grenade attacks in CC, given X number of properly equipped models.

Cheers!

Re: Grenades in Assault

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:13 am
by Lord Baerion
First of all, thank you for bearing with me here and responding DCannon4Life. I am a long time fantasy player and getting into 40k so this may be something from 5th or 6th ed that is causing some lapse here.

I read and re-read the rules on grenades. I looked at the passage you called out on pg. 180. You are correct "A MODEL" can use such a grenade...etc. To me this line basically just explains that a model with 4 attacks can only choose to make one attack if a grenade is chosen as the weapon.

It does not allow all models in a unit to use grenades as the line at the beginning of the grenade section specifically says only one per unit per phase (reference the same section/can't remember if it is on p. 180).

So - is this just 40k players assuming it is played a certain way? Nothing in the rules (or the FAQ) that I can find allows for more than one model to use a grenade. The specific rule you pointed out does not grant a unit exemption from the rule disallowing more than one per unit per phase.

Re: Grenades in Assault

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:13 pm
by DCannon4Life
I enjoy rules conundrums, and am always delighted to engage in earnest, courteous rules discussions/debates!

In 40K, whenever a rule says, 'a model' it means, 'any model'. Fluff sections of the rules are generally only admissible (when trying to determine the nature of a given rule) for divining 'Intention' (RAI). When you read the fluff for the grenades being used in assault, you see they're not being thrown, per se. They're being tossed in engine intakes or 'attached' somehow.

Key to understand here is that throwing a grenade is a shooting attack, and is resolved as such. Thus the limitation on throwing is directly setting the limits on the use of grenades when making shooting attacks. For example, when being charged by an MC (say a T8 Wraith Lord), a Space Marine player can elect to have ONE of his men try to throw a Krak grenade during overwatch (since it can wound on a 6), while firing a Heavy Bolter and Plasma Gun with two other models, since those are the only weapons that can hurt the Wraith Lord. The other 7 guys have to try not to soil their ceramite....

In the assault phase, the grenades are explicitly (not in the fluff--in the rules), useable as CC weapons versus vehicles, buildings, MC's (and GC's and SHV's and SHW's), with the limitation that, as a CC weapon, the grenade can only be used to make one attack. So, at this point, everyone gets to play Pin-the-Grenade on the Wraith Lord.

How's that?

Re: Grenades in Assault

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:18 pm
by Lord Baerion
Gotcha - so the key argument I see is that "throwing a grenade" is specific to a shooting attack either in the shooting phase or assault phase as an overwatch reaction.

I can get on board with this as the rule stating only one per phase is definitely in relation to throwing a grenade.

Thanks for the discussion!!

Re: Grenades in Assault

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:09 pm
by DCannon4Life
Cheers! :D

Re: Grenades in Assault

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 12:30 am
by cwalker
Hmmmm........

FAQ reversed the way this is played now.

To the better I think.

Take that Haywire grenades!

Imperial Knights can breathe easier now.

Re: Grenades in Assault

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:37 pm
by Brokenpixel
Not in ITC yet. It was voted to not use the FAQ until its final. So continue to pile on the grenades. Also, 30k players play it the same way, as you buy melta bombs for the whole squad, and for some people, its the only way they take down superheavies etc. The FAQ guy messed up probably reading the BRB exaclty as stated above, and then stopped reading. IMHO.