Modifiers

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Modifiers

Postby tg787 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:58 pm

I was reading the small rule book the other day and came across a interesting rule. Take a look on page 2 at the fourth paragraph, its labeled multiple modifiers, in regards to the popular screemer star lists. Basically from what I can tell the +2 to your inv save wouldn't apply if you cast the 4+ inv save spell.
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Re: Modifiers

Postby DaGrippster » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:26 pm

I think he is exactly right. Don't know how this hasn't been brought up before :shock:

To explain what he is saying, the section about modifiers has a very clearly laid out order of operations for modifiers. First come multipiers, then addition/subtraction, and then rules that give a stat a set value.

This is why furious charge and a power fist gives you strength 9 if you have base strength 4. First, 4 x 2 (multipier) gives you eight, and then you add the one for the charge to get 9.

So, in terms of the screamer star, the grimoire would first increase them from a 5++ to a 3++ invulnerable save. However, if forewarning was also cast, this would reduce their invulnerable save to a 4++, as it gives them a set value and is applied last.

Now they would have a 3++ rerolling ones, giving them a failure rate of 19.44%, making them slightly worse at saving than terminators who have a 16.66%.

I guess the answer to beating the screamer star was reading the rules :lol:

Thoughts? I think it is pretty cut and dry, good catch Tim.
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Re: Modifiers

Postby tulkasulmar » Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:20 pm

I think you guys are missing when Forewarning and the Grimoire goes off.

Forewarning is cast at the beginning of the Demon Turn, it's a Blessing Psychic test.
Grimoire goes off in the Movement phase, at any time of the Grimoire bearers Movement Phase.

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Re: Modifiers

Postby tg787 » Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:59 pm

It doesn't mention phases just how to come up with a net result when multiple modifiers are applied.
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Re: Modifiers

Postby Chubs » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:00 am

Jumping in here. As much as I don't like the 2++, it looks legit to me.

A few things are happening.

The grimoire modifies all inv saves (plural) given being a daemon yatta yatta.
Fore warning gives the unit a 4++.

The daemon unit actually have 2 inv saves, not unlike assault term with storm shields... So both are modified by +2.

There is no multiplication going on here. Other things ( see warp storm table, sky platform, nemesis force swords, CSM mark of tzeentch) can also modified or give an invul save.

We should talk about this one today.
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Re: Modifiers

Postby tg787 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:37 am

Tyler, the rules lays it out pretty clear here. Any set value is applied last from any combination of rules or war gear that modifies a characteristic. Ie if you have a rule or war gear item that gives you a 4+ inv it overwrites everything else.
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Re: Modifiers

Postby Chubs » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:57 am

That's what I get reading before coffee.

You are right, fixed values are applied last.

But... This opens up something darker...
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Re: Modifiers

Postby Norbu the Destroyer » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:24 pm

I think Tim, you bring up a good point. I can definately see why you would come to that conclusion. I guess my only argument would be, then you would really NEVER get any modifiers since the demaon rule is a set value of 5+. Since the rule states rules/modifiers/etc. order, wouldnt the deamon USR ALWAYS be a 5+. So in theory - Grimore a unit......fails......-1 invul. I could then go, well its not so bad...the deamon rule says I have a 5+ invul. Modifiers come before the set value, canceling the -1 invul. save.

Now you could be totally correct, but then wouldnt that make the Grimore a useless piece of wargear as it couldnt modify a Deamon USR?? I guess I dont see the differance between modifying the deamon USR or modifying 4+ invul. from a divination power. Of course I also interperate using the Tzeentch CSM mark to a unit on a skysheild as a 3+ invul. save.
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Re: Modifiers

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:31 pm

Post it on Dakka and let the brains fight it out. Or just PM Merhstedt.
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Re: Modifiers

Postby Chubs » Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:33 am

What's Hans alludes to is the just the tip of the iceberg...


If you define where a 'fixed' value comes, then you fill know what can or can't be modified.

Just my thought.
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Re: Modifiers

Postby DaGrippster » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:58 pm

Yea, it does raise complications. I think it makes most sense when a modifier is considered any change to your stats that you don't start the game with. The demon special rule doesn't need to be triggered, it just happens. Modifiers need some action or trigger to be applied.

Then again, that's just speculation on poorly worded rules.
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Re: Modifiers

Postby YeezyMozart » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:12 pm

The best thing coming out of this forum is that I know Tim Gorham is reading his rule book, which is great since he refers to it almost as much as Tom Curzi. :lol:
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Re: Modifiers

Postby Lord Krungharr » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:01 am

If the Grimoire is not being used simultaneously with Forewarning, that is, at the same point in the Movement Phase (and of course gets used after Forewarning gets cast), then the modifier should further modify the previously 'set value' provided by Forewarning.

It only makes sense to apply the multiple modifiers rule-set when multiple modifiers are being implemented at the same point, like multiple Blessings and/or Maledictions at the beginning of the Movement Phase or multiple wargear effects at the same point in an assault phase, etc. Otherwise set value modifiers provided by wargear (like a bike/jetbike upgrade on an IC) could never be modified, as they always have those set values throughout the game, and who doesn't love to Enfeeble a Biker Lord?
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Re: Modifiers

Postby DaGrippster » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:04 am

Lord Krungharr wrote:If the Grimoire is not being used simultaneously with Forewarning, that is, at the same point in the Movement Phase (and of course gets used after Forewarning gets cast), then the modifier should further modify the previously 'set value' provided by Forewarning.

It only makes sense to apply the multiple modifiers rule-set when multiple modifiers are being implemented at the same point, like multiple Blessings and/or Maledictions at the beginning of the Movement Phase or multiple wargear effects at the same point in an assault phase, etc. Otherwise set value modifiers provided by wargear (like a bike/jetbike upgrade on an IC) could never be modified, as they always have those set values throughout the game, and who doesn't love to Enfeeble a Biker Lord?


I agree that that is how it SHOULD work, but unfortunately that's not how it is worded in the rule book. The rulebook doesn't mention anything about modifiers being dependent on time applied, just what to do when there are multiple modifiers.
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Re: Modifiers

Postby Lord Krungharr » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:47 pm

But by that argument, a cover save would never be able to be improved by Invisibility, for example. The power gets cast on a model in a forest for example, but the forest provides a set value of 5+ cover, which is a modifier right? The model doesn't normally get that without a specific condition of it being in the forest. Or a Tzeentch Havoc would not get a 3++ on a Skyshield Pad then either if your view is taken...even though the Mark of Tzeentch is a permanent part of the model's wargear. That doesn't smell right to me.

Since the modifier rules don't specify whether or not that set values always trump any modifiers done at a different point in time, and other modifiers can and do occur at different times than some set values are established, I think it does indeed matter when they occur.

But if a set value and multiplier/additive or subtractive modifier all happen at the beginning of a turn (from Blessings/Maledictions) then the set value trumps, as they both happen at the beginning by definition of casting the power, even though there is player's turn-choice. I think that only applies when the enemy wants to modify something at the same time.
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