Tau Players

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Tau Players

Postby swampthing » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:24 am

when shooting seeker missiles at Zooming Flyers/ Swooping F-monsters, do you
1. Markerlight At BS-1, then Seeker Missile At BS-5
2. Markerlight At BS-1, Then Seeker Missile at BS-1
3. Markerlight AT BS-1, then Seeker Missle at BS-1 w/ bonus to BS from other markerlight tokens.
4. I dont shoot seeker missles at zooming Flyers or Swooping F-monsters.
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Re: Tau Players

Postby seahawk » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:45 pm

#3 is the answer that follows the rules.
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Re: Tau Players

Postby Redbeard » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:32 pm

seahawk wrote:#3 is the answer that follows the rules.


How so?

As far as I can tell, answer A is correct, for the following reasons:

The markerlights have no special rules at all. They're a weapon profile without skyfire (unless they're the ones on a skyray, in which case, you markerlight at BS4 (+other marker tokens)), and so they fire at flyers with the snapfire rule. The snapfire rule, from page 13, means that this is resolved at BS1.

But, once the flyer has been marked, you can then use the special rule in the Tau codex, on page 68. This attack is expressly made at BS5.

Okay, so there are now two rules that contradict each other.

BRB says shooting at the flyer must be a snap shot, and therefore BS1.
Tau Codex says firing the missile from a markerlight follows a special rule, and is resolved at BS5.

I'm willing to believe that the codex trumps the rulebook in this case. It's a special case that clearly explains how the markerlight is used.

Seahawk, your answer seems to indicate that you believe the rulebook should trump the codex in this case. What reasons do you believe cause that?
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Re: Tau Players

Postby seahawk » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:42 pm

BRB FAQ, page 4:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.


The BS5 function of the markerlight is the same as those listed in the question, and thus is ignored. However, since the rules presented under Pinpoint specifically overrule the Snap Shot (and FAQ) rules, you may increase your BS from 1 in that way.
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Re: Tau Players

Postby YeezyMozart » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:58 pm

1. Markerlight At BS-1, then Seeker Missile At BS-5

That is the ruling.

I don't feel like telling you why. 8)
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Re: Tau Players

Postby seahawk » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:09 pm

Because the Tau aren't good enough already?
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Re: Tau Players

Postby Lord Krungharr » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:56 am

So the Tau can fire at Zoomers/Swoopers at BS5 after Markerlighting them?

What is PinPoint?
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Re: Tau Players

Postby Redbeard » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:22 am

Pinpoint is one of the three things you can do with a markerlight token. From Codex: Tau, Page 68:


Pinpoint: Cost 1+ token
All models firing at the target as a part of this shooting attack gain a bonus to their Ballistic Skill of the duration of the shooting attack. The size of this bonus is equal to the number of markerlight counters expended on this ability. Pinpoint can increase the Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch.



@Seahawk, the FAQ you reference was written prior to the release of the Tau Codex. I still believe that in this case, you're wrong, and its because of the wording:

(Page 13, BRB): "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

It's all about the model in question. The snapshot rule sets the model's Ballistic Skill to 1.

But Seeker Missiles fired with the Seeker rule aren't using the model's Ballistic Skill. Their attack is specifically resolved at BS5. Snapshot may set a Devilfish to BS1, applied to the model, but that Seeker missile isn't using the Devilfish's BS, anymore than it uses the Devilfish's BS3 when not taking snap shots.

In addition, the phrase "rather than shoot normally" is relevant, as firing a Seeker missile using the Seeker rule is not shooting normally.
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Re: Tau Players

Postby swampthing » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:45 am

well seems like we cleared that up without too much bloodshed, and good supporting documentation :?

as long as we are on the subject of seeker missles, Can they be "dumb" fired. i.e. fired by the model that houses it, and using that model's BS. unless ive missed it, theres no mention this circumstance in the Tau Codex. The people on Dakka seem to think so, but id like to get the opinion of the community in play in.(you guys)
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Re: Tau Players

Postby seahawk » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:47 am

Same goes for Telion, Chronus, and the Signum. Using a different Ballistic skill is not shooting normally either, yet they still suffer the Snap Shot penalty, and we can apply the same argument of yours to it:

"But [weapons] fired with the [Voice of Experience, Signum, etc] rule aren't using the model's Ballistic Skill. Their attack is specifically resolved at BS5 (or 6). Snapshot may set a [Scout, Vehicle, etc] to BS1, applied to the model, but that [weapon] isn't using the [model's] BS, anymore than it uses the [model's] BS3 when not taking snap shots."

It doesn't matter in the slightest that it was printed before, as it's still current, and it still takes a poop on it because that's what GW decided. Yours is the same argument we used to justify having all other effects like it override the Snap Shot penalty, but since GW FAQ'd it otherwise, that means no BS5 for anybody, not even seeker missiles.



For people without the codex:
Immediately before a unit from Codex: Tau Empire shoots at a target that has one or more markerlight counters, it can
declare it is using one or more of the markerlight abilities listed below.

For each markerlight counter expended on this ability, the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile (if it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is permitted to fire. A seeker missile fired in this way:
- Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's other weapons.
- Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5.
- Has the Ignores Cover special rule.
- Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at its full Ballistic Skill.
- Does count towards the limit of 2 missiles that a flyer can fire each turn.


[edit] No, it hasn't been cleared up at all, and yes, they can be fired without markerlights. It's just not as good. ;)
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Re: Tau Players

Postby Redbeard » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:05 pm

seahawk wrote:Same goes for Telion, Chronus, and the Signum. Using a different Ballistic skill is not shooting normally either, yet they still suffer the Snap Shot penalty, and we can apply the same argument of yours to it:


That's not true at all.

For example, the Signum states, on page 100 of Codex Space Marine, "A model can use a signum in lieu of making a shooting attack of his own. If he does so, one model in his squad is Ballistic Skill 5 for the remainder of the Shooting phase."

Okay, so that model is Ballistic skill 5, but as stated before, for making the snap shot, it is counted as being BS1.

The wording for the seeker missile is different, in that it does not reference the Ballistic Skill of the model doing the firing, which is what Snap Shot affects, instead, it states that the attack, not the model, is resolved at BS5.


If you're going to claim that these other rules can be interchanged, at least have the decency to cite pages and quote them. The difference is that the other rules affect the BS of the firing model. Seeker missiles are not fired with the BS of the firing model.
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Re: Tau Players

Postby seahawk » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:22 pm

"...one friendly model in his squad can use his Ballistic Skill of 6." (C:SM, p.88)
"Chronus' tank...can use his Ballistic Skill of 5." (C:SM, p.89)


Argument: The model isn't using their own BS of 3/4, they are using a different set characteristic of 5 or 6. Since only the shooter's BS is reduced to 1 for Snap Shots, Voice of Experience and Tank Commander override it, allowing you to shoot at BS5 instead of Snap Shots.

Repeat for Tau: The model isn't using their own BS of 3, they are using a different set characteristic of 5. Since only the shooter's BS is reduced to 1 for Snap Shots, Seeker overrides it, allowing you to shoot at BS5 instead of Snap Shots.

Denial: GW says the original argument is invalid, and Snap Shot overrides all. Since it's the only precedent set to make a ruling for Seeker, the ruling should remain the same for both to remain consistent.
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealously, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war, minus the shooting." - George Orwell
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Re: Tau Players

Postby Redbeard » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:56 pm

Well, we clearly disagree here.

Until GW puts out their FAQ, which I'd put money on saying that the seeker resolves at BS5, you're not going to convince me, and vice versa. Alan's already ruled how it will be played at AWC events, so I suggest practicing that way if you're likely to be in any of those.


Edit:

The main other reason that it should be at BS5 is because otherwise, it's essentially inflicting a double-penalty on firing seeker missiles this way, first requiring a snap-shot to hit with the marker light and then requiring a second snap-shot to hit with the missile. None of the SM units are penalized twice in this way, they don't have to roll to hit on a 6 twice, just once. Having a 1/36 chance of hitting is so inconsequential as to make the action worthless, so much so that if they rule the other way, they might as well say that you can't even take that shot.
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Re: Tau Players

Postby YeezyMozart » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:11 pm

Redbeard wrote:Well, we clearly disagree here. Alan's already ruled how it will be played at AWC events, so I suggest practicing that way if you're likely to be in any of those.


He clearly disagrees with most people online so don't take it personally Alex. :D But I must say valiant attempt to convince him.

But yes my ruling on the matter is final. :mrgreen:
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Re: Tau Players

Postby sangheili » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:03 pm

So does this also mean if my rhino gets shaken or stunned once I disembark my space marines they'll be shooting at normal bs cuz the effect clearly says the crew once they disembark they aren't crew anymore...lmao
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