Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

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Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby seahawk » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:12 am

Posted this elsewhere, but the consensus was to mix and match rules which is not how the game works, so I present it for your opinion on how AWC wants to do it (and until GW fixes their retardedness, how the INAT wants to do it).

So, the new White Dwarf rules update is out with some updates to old units and some brand new ones. Here is the issue: there are two versions of the Daemon special rule, and all of these new statlines mess it up. Here's what each give:

C:CD Daemon:
- Fear
- Fearless
- Invulnerable! (If it has a value on it's Sv characteristic, that's an invulnerable save instead)
- Daemonic Assault (The half pop in first turn, etc)
- Daemonic Rivalry (Can't have characters from different gods join up)

BRB Daemon
- Fear
- 5+ Invulnerable save


So which do we use for the new units? Key note: all of them have a "-" for their Sv characteristic and no special rule that says they get an invulnerable save of any kind.

If we use the C:CD version, none of them get any saves whatsoever because they only get one if they have it on their statline. In other words, a major disadvantage.

If we use the BRB version, they lose Fearless, Daemonic Assault, and Daemonic Rivalry. In other words, a major disadvantage. This forces these units to deploy like a normal army and allows characters from any god to join any other unit (Herald of Tzeentch joins Bloodletters...derp).


Naturally, the update pamphlet doesn't say which one to use, even though it seems obvious that it's the latter...but then it causes the problems, as noted above.

So, what do we do? Get nerfed, or get nerfed? :P


Some responses and answers:

Pretty sure you use your codex, if you are playing that army. Alternate rule published in White Dwarf or FAQ or rule supplement are guidelines that can be use if all parties involved agree to use them (Codex > rulebook).
No, official rules updates in the White Dwarf are considered for all intents and purposes to be officially part of a codex. Even so, if we use the C:D rules, then all the new daemons and Flamers and Screamers lose their saves altogether. If we use the BRB rules, they lose a lot more as indicated in the first post.


DAEMON
This special rule applies to every model in this army and includes the following four special rules: (now five)
This Daemon is specifically stated to include certain rules, independent of the other one. I suppose an argument could be made that the Daemon at the beginning of the bestiary is not the same as the Daemon in the unit entry, but that's kinda iffy.


The problem is that one version gives an invulnerable save and forces you to deploy normally, while the other doesn't and also gives you Fearless.

It was the same as, pre-FAQ, storm shields and other things being exactly the same piece of kit but having two sets of rules. Different marine players were forced to play two different types of shields and etc. How is this any different? The rest of C:CD has the version of Daemon where they get certain rules, but the new and updated units are confused. The big question, for those that are confused:

Do the new daemons get the version that gives Fear, Fearless, Invulnerable!, Daemonic Assault, and Daemonic Rivalry, or do they get the version that gives Fear and a 5+ invulnerable save? Here's the kicker: No matter which way you choose, it's wrong and fails both the fluff and rules.


The rules in the rulebook apply to all daemons, whatever the source.
The rules in the codex only apply to codex daemons.
Didn't address this, but you're right. Unfortunately, none of the units in the codex have "Daemon" listed twice, at which point they'd have the rules for both. If they're in the codex (like the new models), then they only get the codex version of Daemon.
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby YeezyMozart » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:57 am

I have seen this issue coming for sometime. . . . .

The USR has changed according to the new rule book and I know there is a unwritten or maybe it is written rule that states codex triumphs rule book.

Personalty, I think without the codex demonic assault rule the entire army changes completely, but the thought of blood crushers running away makes me all warm inside :P

I would rule that the Daemon USR in the rule book applies to ALL Daemons of all kind. The Daemon USR in the Daemon Codex applies to all Codex Daemon entries in addition to the USR in the rule book. The rule book is like a blanket USR and then the codex adds onto what the rule book gives. Its like I am going to give all daemons a cookie but then Codex Daemons get some milk too. :D

Any other way of playing it is silly in my opinion.
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby Turtle » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:56 am

you use both.All daemons have the rules listed in the main rule book. Daemons from the codex daemons also have the additional rules. Immune to instant death, daemonic assault etc...
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby seahawk » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:35 am

Except that's not what it says. The rule "Daemon" in the codex is defined by including 5 distinct special rules. The rule "Daemon" in the BRB is defined by including 2 distinct special rules. That's where the conflict comes in. "Daemon" is defined in two different ways, and the units in the codex only have one "Daemon" in their entry. It has to have it there twice to get the benefits from both.
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby Turtle » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:44 pm

all right fine. if thats the way you want to do this we'll break down language monotonously and do it your way.

In the daemon codex it says

Demon
This special rule applies to every model in this army and includes the following four special rules
Fearless
Invulnerable
Daemonic Assault
Daemonic Rivalry

In the main rulebook under the daemon special rule it says
Daemon
Models with the special rule have a 5+ invulnerable save, and also have the fear special rule.


Ok so now that we know what it says verbatim we can progress.

The daemon codex tells us that every model is a daemon. reference Daemon Codex---"This special rule applies to every model in this army..."
So therefore all models in the daemon codex get what is defined as a daemon by the main rulebook. reference--what it says in the main rulebook.

So point number one. All models that are daemons regardless of which codex they are in get the rules for being a daemon as defined by the main rulebook. clear and concise.

The daemon codex also tells us under the heading of Daemon what else they get. reference daemon codex --- "and includes the following four special rules."
So this tells us that in addition to being daemons, models in this codex get four additional special rules. We know this because it used the words "and includes."
That means boys and girls that all models in the daemon codex get the rules of
1. Daemon
2. Fearless
3. Invulnerable
4. Daemonic Assault
5. Daemonic Rivalry

So Point number two. All models in the daemon codex get the special rule daemon in addition to the other 4 rules in the daemon codex.

How do we know this? Because when you look at a unit entry in the daemon codex It says under special rules that it has Daemon. How do we know what daemon does? We look in our codex first and see what it says. Hey there it is! Covered on page 27 of the daemon codex. Where it tells us that all daemons get the rule daemon AND 4 more rules. but wait how do we know what we get by being a daemon? our codex doesn't tell us. Oh well that's covered in the rule book on page 35.

So therefore there is no conflict, it is very cut and dry and not really open to crazy interpretation. The codex says you get the special rule of daemon and the following four special rules. There is nowhere it is defined in two different ways. the codex says you get daemon and other stuff. So no crazy insanity about having to say daemon twice.....really? I mean really?

Point number three. What I said in my original post is 100% correct.

All this effectively means is that any model in the daemon codex who did not have an invulnerable save now have a 5+ invulnerable (soulgrinder) and that every model in the codex also now causes fear.
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:50 pm

I agree 100% with Turtle. He has it spot on.
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby seahawk » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:29 pm

You could have said that without being snippy. It does help my understanding of that argument, in any case.

I still disagree, partly. Why did they bother to add Fear to C:CD's special rules if they already get it from the BRB? That's repetitive (granted, not the first time, but still).

Also, this:

"This special rule applies to every model in this army and includes the following four special rules"

It's describing the parts of that specific rule and only those four rules are what make up Daemon, and nothing else from anywhere else. C:CD defines what the "Daemon" special rule is: those four extra rules, and absolutely nothing else. That's the way I interpreted it and indeed, what it meant when it was written. Why does that meaning suddenly change with the new edition? Is it that it's also defined in the BRB? Don't get me wrong, I want to get an invulnerable save, I just don't see how, with how the rules are. If the BRB Daemon is part of C:CD Daemon, then the reverse is also true, no?

"Models with this special rule have a 5+ invulnerable save, and also have the fear special rule." According to your argument, any ol' daemon, say the Avatar, get a 5+ and cause Fear, while also getting the rules as defined under what a Daemon is. Since Daemon is defined differently in both the BRB and Codex...there is a problem.
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealously, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war, minus the shooting." - George Orwell
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby Norbu the Destroyer » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:08 pm

Avatar isnt in the Deamon codex so nothing from the Deamons codex applies to him.

Now I know White Dwarf has its issues, and by no means are the White Dwarves without rules issues, but there is some evidence the daemons are intended to get both the USR from the BRB and the Deamon entry from their codex.

Im sure by now all of you have read the latest White Dwarf battle report as it is full of tactical insight......but there is a little nugget I found while pouring over Battle Report:Eye of the Warpstorm.

My evidence is on page 48 of issue 391 (The latest issue). Matt Hutson is playing as Eldar, and is going over his strategy for building an army. 3rd sentence of the second paragraph "Every Chaos Daemon has a 5+ Invulnerable save and the Eternal Warrior special rule, meaning that squads such as Fire Dragons are far less effective against them."

I rest my case :wink: White Dwarf would not lie.
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:27 pm

The Avatar has a special mention in the new Eldar FAQ. It says he is a Daemon and as such has the fear rule, however his save is a 4+. They make special mention of him in the new FAQ.
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby Brian » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:24 pm

So if someone tries to tell me my Herald of Tzeentch gets a 5+ save because he's a "daemon" I can tell them that the "invulnerable" special rule in the codex trumps it? (because that unit's stat line specifies a 4+)
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby Lord Krungharr » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:04 pm

Definitely, the Daemons in Codex:Daemons get whatever save that book says they have. And my Soulgrinders will be happy about their new 5+ save and Fear too.

Here's another question though; since the Grey Knights GWFAQ says vehicles with Daemonic Possession count as Daemon, do those vehicles now get a 5+ invul save and Fear? In that little snippet it does not say they only count as Daemon for purposes of Grey Knights re-rolling crap.
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby Turtle » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:22 pm

brian, your herald of tzeentch actually has 2 invulnerable saves. One 5+ for being a daemon as per the main rulebook. and a 4+ as clearly defined in his unit entry. and since the main rulebook says you must use the best save available he uses the 4+ invul
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby Norbu the Destroyer » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:33 pm

I love the soulgrinder....and the daemons, but I have been playing it as the Soul Grinder does not get the invul. save. In the Deamon Codex it states that the daemon special rule in its profile only grants the soul grinder very specific powers. I understand the argument on the other side, but until the FAQ I have been playing it as no invul. It would be awesome if they had them so he would be just like a skimmer moving around. Fateweaver would actually be able to help those guys if they recieved some sort of save.
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby Kuma » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:04 am

yeah for the soulgrinder it says "rule simply means it deploys like all other daemons....immune to shaken and stunned"
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Re: Daemon vs Daemon; which one?

Postby Lord Krungharr » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:54 pm

Yes, in the Daemons Codex it says the Soul Grinder gets immunity to shaken and stunned results as a result of the Daemon rule in the Codex. But every other Daemon in the Codex gets the Fear special rule because of the new BRB Daemon rule. So then doesn't it stand to reason that the Soul Grinder will also get the 5+ invul save and Fear thanks to the added BRB rule, just like the other Codex Daemons get the addition of Fear?
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