Reanimation Protocols are FAIL

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Reanimation Protocols are FAIL

Postby seahawk » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:56 pm

Upon careful reading of the Reanimation Protocols (RP) and Everliving (EL) rules, my friend and I found a massive problem with the Royal Court, much less any other independent character in the Necron codex. I present to you two scenarios for consideration, then a practical question on kill points.

Relevant Rules:

Reanimation Protocols
"If a model with the reanimation protocols rule is removed as a casualty, there is a chance that it will self-repair and return to play at the end of the current phase. Whenever a unit takes one or more casualties, place counters or other suitable markers next to the unit to remind you how many casualties were taken. If the unit falls back remove the counters."

Reanimation protocols rolls cannot be attempted if the unit has been destroyed - once the last model has been removed, remove all counters. Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for the purposes of Reanimation protocols."

Everliving
If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a Reanimation protocols counter to its unit, instead place an everliving counter where this model was removed from play. At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation protocols counter.

"If this model had been joined to a unit when it was removed, and the roll was passed, it must return to play with a single wound in coherency with that unit."

"if the returning model cannot be placed, for any reason, it is lost and does not return."



Scenario 1: Royal Court lord or Overlord or any other IC joined to warriors; in a single shooting phase all the warriors are downed and the character is also downed.


First, the EL part. When a model with EL goes down, it follows one of two paths: If it was joined to a squad when it died, it does "X"; if it was not joined to a squad, it does "Z." The part I'm focusing on is when it needs to do "X" (ie, when it was joined to a squad). The rule says when a model with EL is removed as a casualty when joined to a squad, if it succeeds at its RP roll it must join that unit as per the RP rules. That's fine.

So, we flip back to the RP rules, which say if the entire unit is wiped out, nobody gets to come back to life. Even if the character could, he must join the unit he was in...but it's dead and gone, so he can't join them, so he stays dead as per the last lines in EL, where it says if the model cannot be placed (with nowhere to go, it cannot be placed) it is lost. This sucks for Necrons! RP is weaker than WBB in this case!



Scenario 2: Royal Court unit; the characters stay together. One gets killed, or all get killed, doesn't matter.


This continues the line of thought in Scenario 1, but it gets worse. The entire unit is made of characters. RP says that characters do not count for being able to come back to the unit; you must have a non-character model still alive to be able to come back. Ergo, the characters in a Royal Court unit cannot ever use RP to come back to life. The unit kills itself! This is an even worse scenario than #1 above; who would EVER use this unit??




So, I personally believe this isn't how it should be, but unfortunately that's how it's written! What a travesty...



Lastly, a third question: when do you count the kill point for an independent character? It's removed as a casualty for sure now, then it can come back to life, all as per RP. So, when does a unit count as destroyed? When it's been removed as a casualty? Well then, the character has fulfilled those criteria, so it gives it up immediately, right? If it keeps coming back to life, is it continuously worth 1 kill point? Is it only ever worth one?

WWAAAAAARRRRRRRD!!!!! :evil:
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Postby GregSwanson » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:14 pm

Most likely if the character was joined to unit and it died the unit was wiped out and before it ded it became an IC again. It would be like if you shot all the models off a unit and only the IC remained. It would not take a morale test asit was no longer an IC
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Postby seahawk » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:39 pm

The character does test, simply because it's still part of that dead unit until the next Movement Phase. A character can only join or leave during the Movement Phase, and GW, in their ultimate wisdom, hasn't yet clarified what happens in this instance.

What if the IC was downed before the unit went down? He's still attached then, no?
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Postby Norbu the Destroyer » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:59 pm

I think the only issue that arrises from the wording is if the unit is wiped with the IC attached, and the IC is wiped out as well, can the IC attempt Ever Living roll. This is the only situation not really adressed in the rules as they are written.

As for the Royal Court, the entire unit would be able to get up because of ever living and join up with their unit as long as the criteria are met (not falling back and what not).

As to giving up KP, Im pretty sure it will be only permanent casualties count, as this is how GW has ruled it in every case that I can think of.

Keep in mind there is another addition on the way, and some of the rules may smooth out, (charachters, when IC's can join/leave units, melee resolution changes) and all our problems may be over.

I wouldnt sweat it too much, and I like GW is trying to implement new game mechanics, and I wouldnt pounce on them too hard for some finecky situations that arent spelled out. They are trying to do their best to write a rule system with 16 races full of crazy rules, and letting them interact in a streamlined combat system. Things like this pop up, and you just need to take a deep breath, talk it over with your opponent, and anything that cant be resolved with the written rules can always be "d6ed" :)
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Re: Reanimation Protocols are FAIL

Postby Skrivus » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:40 pm

seahawk wrote:
Scenario 2: Royal Court unit; the characters stay together. One gets killed, or all get killed, doesn't matter.


This continues the line of thought in Scenario 1, but it gets worse. The entire unit is made of characters. RP says that characters do not count for being able to come back to the unit; you must have a non-character model still alive to be able to come back. Ergo, the characters in a Royal Court unit cannot ever use RP to come back to life. The unit kills itself! This is an even worse scenario than #1 above; who would EVER use this unit??


The ever-living rules only require that the model be in a unit (doesn't say "non-character unit"). As long as one model survives in the court, then they can attempt the Ever Living roll.
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Postby Turtle » Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:20 am

in fact ever living doesn't stiplulate that you have to be in a unit, go ahead check it out...

so a royal court unit all gets killed, and they still get to attempt a reanimation roll :-)
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Postby seahawk » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:55 am

No, but ever-living clearly spells out it's process when the model is joined to a unit and when it is not. As I said, I'm only focusing on the former, as that's where the problems lie.

Here are the relevant rules:

"If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not ass a Reanimation Protocols counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play. At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you for a Reanimation Protocols counter."

"If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll is passed, it must be returned to play, with a single wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in Reanimation Protocols."


RP:
"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of Reanimation Protocols." If a character is the only survivor of a unit, his presence is not sufficient to allow Reanimation Protocol Rolls."


It does actually say that there must be other models than characters in teh unit to be able to use RP. So...if a unit that's comprised of only characters is all that's left of the unit (as is the case with Royal Court), no members of the unit can use RP or EL because of the above rule.
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Postby Turtle » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:55 am

you're combining 2 rules that don't get combined. Ever living is seperate from reanimation. the only thing thats the same is that you roll a dice to get back up. ever living doesn't follow all the same stuff as reanimation.

The character stuff isn't relevent to everliving. The only thing in the everling rul that it refers back to reanimation protocols is "roll for this counter...etc" so you roll a d6 just like in reanimation and thats that.

Everliving clearly states you put a counter down where the character model died, so for a court of 10 you would put down 10 counters if they all died and roll to get back up for each of them as per the everling rules

so a unit of everling models would always get to attempt to get back up
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Postby seahawk » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:39 am

...no...that's not how it works.


The court rules say:

"If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll is passed, it must be returned to play, with a single wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in Reanimation Protocols."

A royal court with 10 models, and they all die as you said. Well, since the unit is dead, none of them get back up. Why? Because when they get back up they MUST join the unit they were in, following the rules for Reanimation Protocols. That unit is dead. The models with EL have nowhere to go because they cannot join a unit that doesn't exist. Then, you follow the rules for EL as normal:

"if the returning model cannot be placed, for any reason, it is lost and does not return."

And so the entire unit is lost...
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Postby Turtle » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:10 am

no thats not how it works...

models in a court can't join a unit not a single one of them is an independant character

everliving clearly states you put a marker where the model was and roll for it etc...

so a court can all fall down and keep getting back up

in any case it seems like we'll have to wait for a faq
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Postby seahawk » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:19 pm

Models in a court actually can join a unit; they just can't leave it. Until then, they are simply a unit of character that are joined together.

Yes, epic FAQ is needed. The Spanish already put one out...
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Postby jlong05 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:22 pm

It's arguments like this that ensure I would never play in a 40k tournament. Too often the player base looks to find the loophole in teh game to penalize a player, instead of taking the rule at face value for what the intent was.

And really, I am not interested in the 'we dont know the intent of the rule desgner'. This is clearly a case where the EL rule is there to allow standups, but because some reviewer of the rules thought to say. hey wait. What if they think it goes like this? Any everyone else in games design said. nooooo they coulnd't possibly be that narrow-minded.

Anyway, I look forward to the FAQ that clears this up.
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