rules questions from last weekend

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rules questions from last weekend

Postby tg787 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:45 pm

I had a few rules questions come up last weekend and I want to see what the awcers think about them. The first is that you don't have to place a crater if you don't have one. After re reading the rule I agreed to this one even though its a bit odd. The second is that storm ravens can't have wings tails off the table. I thught they faqed this but we couldn't find it. So it was ruled that all parts must be on and can't hang off. What do you guys think?
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Postby seahawk » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:18 am

The first question about the craters:

If you have a crater or other suitable terrain piece, you must replace the exploded vehicle with it, since it says: "The vehicle is then removed and is replaced with an area of difficult ground representing scattered wreckage or a crater (if you have one)." (p.61)

If you don't have a piece to use, then you don't place the new terrain, you're right.



The second question about overhang is answerable in the BRB FAQ:

Q: Can models move off the table? (p11)
A: Not unless a rule or the mission being played clearly
specify that they can. All good wargamers know that
the edge of the table is the end of the world!


Q: Are a vehicle’s wings considered to be part of its
hull? (p60)
A: Yes.


And it case it matters -

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but
is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play


Combining all those, all parts of a storm raven count as it's hull. Since no part of a model may move off the table as per the first quote, that means there is no overhang allowed. Therefore, storm ravens, valkyries, and probably razorwings all need to move over 6" when coming on the table from reserves, as they can't hang off the table (or they are destroyed!).
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Postby tg787 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:52 pm

Yeah i thought that when they talked about everything being off the base that it included being on/off the board.
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Postby Zero_Cool » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:29 pm

What about this section from the FAQ?


Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.


This specifically deals with the models placement/position/orientation on the table - only the base is used to determine the models location. Additionally page 3 of the rule book under Measuring Distances states that "a model is considered to occupy the area of its base". This would lead me to believe that so long as no part of the base is off the table then the "overhang" of wings or tail or whatever would not matter and therefor NOT result in a destroyed vehicle (unless you accidently knock the precariously placed model off the table of course).
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Postby seahawk » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:36 pm

I'd considered that, but have to disagree. I think that FAQ entry only deals with terrain, not the edge of the board. Since normal vehicles don't have bases, can they have off the table? Of course not, they must move/be entirely on the table.

What would happen if a skimmer hanging off the table gets immobilized? It'd be destroyed because it's not completely on the table?

Gotta play one way or the other; for table edge purposes, either all vehicles can hang off (which isn't allowed), or none can hang off the edge.
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealously, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war, minus the shooting." - George Orwell
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Postby Zero_Cool » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:57 pm

seahawk wrote:I'd considered that, but have to disagree. I think that FAQ entry only deals with terrain, not the edge of the board. Since normal vehicles don't have bases, can they have off the table? Of course not, they must move/be entirely on the table.


But the question at hand is about a Stormraven - clearly a skimmer that needs to be presented on the table with the base. The FAQ I referenced specifically deals with how to determine the positioning of a skimmer on the table by using the base as opposed to the model itself (also backed by the rule from the BRB I presented). It has nothing to do with other types of vehicles that do not have a base.

seahawk wrote:What would happen if a skimmer hanging off the table gets immobilized? It'd be destroyed because it's not completely on the table?


This is very interesting. I left my rulebook at the office, but what does it say regarding an immobilized skimmer? If it states that it must remove the base and be placed on the table without it then it may very well revert to the rule regarding vehicles without bases and subsiquently be destroyed (a risk the skimmer player would be willing to take?). What do we do about friendly/enemy models under the skimmer at the time of the immobilized result? Are they moved out of the way or is the vehicle moved so as to not be within 1 inch of an enemy model?

seahawk wrote:Gotta play one way or the other; for table edge purposes, either all vehicles can hang off (which isn't allowed), or none can hang off the edge.


Each vehicle has it's own characteristics, abilities and rules and each is treated differently. Skimmers (or other vehicles) with a base clearly have a different rule to apply to them (using the base to represent the area that the model takes up on the table) than vehicles without a base. There isn't a blanket statement that can be made.
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Postby seahawk » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:27 am

but what does it say regarding an immobilized skimmer? If it states that it must remove the base and be placed on the table

It does: "If a skimmer is immobilized or wrecked, its base is removed, if possible. If this is not possible (the base might have been glued in place, for example), don't worry about it. The skimmer's anti-grav field is obviously still working and an immobilized skimmer will simply remain hovering in place, incapable of any further movement; a wrecked one is now a floating, burning wreck." (p.71)

without it then it may very well revert to the rule regarding vehicles without bases and subsiquently be destroyed (a risk the skimmer player would be willing to take?). What do we do about friendly/enemy models under the skimmer at the time of the immobilized result? Are they moved out of the way or is the vehicle moved so as to not be within 1 inch of an enemy model?
There is no function in the rules that allows to resolve this the same way each time. Hopefully 6th edition will sort this out. As it is, I've had my storm pidgeon get immobilized over my own models (in the last game I played, actually). We ruled that they were moved the shortest distance away, much like when Tank Shocking.

This is also this rule to consider, which was completely contradicted by the FAQ :x

"Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either."

The FAQ threw that out for whatever reason, and now we have further problems that need sorting out.


This is what the INAT says (and is what AWC uses):

RB.94D.01 – Q: Some vehicles are so big they
cannot move on from the table edge without
moving faster than combat speed. Are such vehicles
forced to move faster than combat speed on the
turn they move onto the table?

A: Yes, a vehicle must be moved far enough to fit the
entire model onto the table the turn it arrives
. If the
vehicle is so large that it is absolutely impossible to do so
(such as with some slow-moving Super-Heavy vehicles),
then players are allowed to leave the back end of such
models hanging off the edge of the table [rules change]
. If
players are concerned about their model falling off the
table, mark the spot where the vehicle is supposed to be
and temporarily move the model fully onto the table.
Note: While a vehicle is partially „hanging off the table‟,
any access points off the table may not be used and any
blast with the center hole over the vehicle will hit it, even if
the blast is technically off the table


They have acknowledged that any overhang is a rules change, rather than a clarification, and only allowed to massive models that can't completely move onto the table without breaking rules. Fast skimmers don't have that problem, so I reckon they must move entirely on as well.
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealously, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war, minus the shooting." - George Orwell
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Postby Zero_Cool » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:38 am

seahawk wrote:This is what the INAT says (and is what AWC uses):

RB.94D.01 – Q: Some vehicles are so big they
cannot move on from the table edge without
moving faster than combat speed. Are such vehicles
forced to move faster than combat speed on the
turn they move onto the table?

A: Yes, a vehicle must be moved far enough to fit the
entire model onto the table the turn it arrives
. If the
vehicle is so large that it is absolutely impossible to do so
(such as with some slow-moving Super-Heavy vehicles),
then players are allowed to leave the back end of such
models hanging off the edge of the table [rules change]
. If
players are concerned about their model falling off the
table, mark the spot where the vehicle is supposed to be
and temporarily move the model fully onto the table.
Note: While a vehicle is partially „hanging off the table‟,
any access points off the table may not be used and any
blast with the center hole over the vehicle will hit it, even if
the blast is technically off the table


They have acknowledged that any overhang is a rules change, rather than a clarification, and only allowed to massive models that can't completely move onto the table without breaking rules. Fast skimmers don't have that problem, so I reckon they must move entirely on as well.


As this is the rules by which the AWC is governed by and extrapolating the bolded text as to pertain to all vehicles (not just superheavies) then it would support that a Stormraven (or other vehicle for that matter) would have to move onto the table a distance sufficient so that the model does not hang off.

The question remains though - since the Stormraven has a base that it is supplied with and as the previously referenced BRB quote clarifies that the Stormraven would occupy the area of its base, does just the base need to be moved fully on the table?


I rarely make it up for the AWC events anymore and I appologize if I muddied the waters with my interjection. The topic just caught my eye and as I play a Stormraven from time to time I was curious. I will gladly play it whatever way the event organizers rule and would even "4,5 or 6" it should no clear ruling be available in an effort to speed play.
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Postby seahawk » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:04 pm

Well it really comes down to two conflicting rules:

BRB:
"Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either." (p.71)


FAQ:
Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.


(for purposes of this debate, replace "friendly and enemy models" with "impassable terrain," as that would allow us to count the board edge)

Now, one can say they don't conflict, as the FAQ just clarifies the BRB for silly large flyers. However, I say they do because the Immobilization situation.


Naturally, GW says in these situations to:

Q: When two special rules or effects contradict each
other how is this resolved? (p2)
A: Roll off using ‘The Most Important Rule!’


ffffffffuuUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU---- :evil:
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealously, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war, minus the shooting." - George Orwell
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Postby Turtle » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:11 pm

the gw 40k rules faq says that you have to be totally on the table or you're dead, its pretty clear in there
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