MC's + TLOS, Gants and other questions.

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MC's + TLOS, Gants and other questions.

Postby n00bzilla99 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:14 pm

While playing in the TT Primer I had an issue come up.

Can infantry obscure 50% LOS to monstrous creatures? I had an opponent argue that my Hive Guard could not block LOS to my Tervigon behind them and therefore had to simply take the 3 wounds from Missile Launchers rather than get saves which I've always played the opposite where any model can obscure 50% as long as it physically does so.

I've checked the rulebook, and I disagree, what is the right way to play it?

Another thought I had,
When a unit assaults a Venomthrope or a unit that has a single model within 6" that unit makes a dangerous terrain test, does that mean they strike at I1 since they are technically assaulting into cover?

My final question:
Do Termagants count as victory points when they are spawned from the Tervigon. Since they are not ever a normal mission rule, do I really not surrender any victory points from a Tervigon's spawned units? I've checked the INAT for how it will be played at AdeptiCon, but I'd like to see what people think.
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Postby seahawk » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:58 pm

1. Of course they can obscure! It all depends on the size of the infantry and the monstrous creature. If the MC is physically obscured 50% or more, then you definitely get the cover save as that's exactly how it is in the book. I don't have the models to check myself, but remember if your opponent disagrees and you're adamant you get one, it goes to a 5+.

2. Yes their Initiative is reduced to 1; it's covered under the "Assaulting into Cover" section.

3. According to the VP rules, spawned Termagants would fall under the "every unit that has been destroyed" clause, so yes they'd give up VP. I'd calculate it based on the size it is when spawned, but of course an addition to the INAT could give it a flat rate, who knows.
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:12 am

seahawk wrote:3. According to the VP rules, spawned Termagants would fall under the "every unit that has been destroyed" clause, so yes they'd give up VP. I'd calculate it based on the size it is when spawned, but of course an addition to the INAT could give it a flat rate, who knows.


INAT FAQ says that Termagants do not surrender victory points when spawned which is the way I will play it at AdeptiCon but Kill Points will be given up. Which is why I asked.

I of course will not play it that way anywhere else, but at AdeptiCon I must follow the INAT.

The reason I ask is because I would like a clarification so I may explain it to my opponents before each game.
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Postby seahawk » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:44 am

After looking over the INAT, it seems pretty clear to explain: they give up KP but no VP. How in hell they managed to call that RAW is beyond me, as it very clearly isn't (unless the Tyranid codex is in agreement; I don't have it, at work now).
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Postby YeezyMozart » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:20 am

Well the Gaunts don't count for VP's cause you didn't pay for them, but they are units in the game they make an impact so Kill point games balance their effectiveness in a fair way for both players.

I built an entire tyranid army with 5 tervgon's I am probably the biggest fan of them.

Like most tyranid players I made my tervigons out of carnefex's because there was no real model for it. I immediately regretted this decision. Since they went up in flames I get to rebuild them right in the future.

Because if you look at the fluff and the stat line of a Tervigon which is a 6 wound monstrous creature it needs to be the size of a Tyrgon at least but fatter.

So when you model your Tervigon on a regular 60 mill base and use a Carnefex to make it and then have it obscured by gargoyles or hive guard thats a little silly for tournament games. That is really abusing the rules of cover for that model but again its legal there is no ruling anywhere to suggest the intended size the model NEEDS to be, so unless Adepticon makes a direct ruling on the size of tervigons you are perfectly able to use a carnifex and block it with units like Gargolyes and hive guard for a cover save.

But I wouldn't be surprised if you get docked bad on comp if you clearly abuse the "Cover" your hive guard can give a Tervigon.

In actuality the new spider released for orks in fantasy would be the kind of model I see a Tervigon being. That size seems right.

This thing has 6 wounds and can spit out 18 guants!!!! no way in hell would a tervigon model be anywhere near the size of a carnefex.
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:15 pm

Well the Gaunts don't count for VP's cause you didn't pay for them, but they are units in the game they make an impact so Kill point games balance their effectiveness in a fair way for both players.


That's what I would argue and play according to the ruling.

So when you model your Tervigon on a regular 60 mill base and use a Carnefex to make it and then have it obscured by gargoyles or hive guard thats a little silly for tournament games. That is really abusing the rules of cover for that model but again its legal there is no ruling anywhere to suggest the intended size the model NEEDS to be, so unless Adepticon makes a direct ruling on the size of tervigons you are perfectly able to use a carnifex and block it with units like Gargolyes and hive guard for a cover save.


How you can call it modeling for advantage if I have no model to work with? People in the design team used carnifex's left and right to create their Tervigons when the codex first came out. Case and point:

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This is the humbled Tervigon of Phil Kelly, scratch built on an Oval Base from a Carnifex body. If my model is inherently cheating, then Phil Kelly cheats as well.

For me to claim a cover save from Hive Guard (which in themselves are pretty big) is not cheating, nor is it modeling for advantage, because my model is essentially a representation of a unit that does not have an official model. If GW were to release a plastic kit that was 2x the size of my Tervigon model and would dwarf my Hive Guard, I would not argue my point because at that point my model does have an inherent advantage, but since there is no model, how can you claim I am modeling for advantage? I am simply putting out a model that I think represents a tervigon.

Because if you look at the fluff and the stat line of a Tervigon which is a 6 wound monstrous creature it needs to be the size of a Tyrgon at least but fatter.


I'm sorry to say this, but please do not bring fluff into a rules discussion. Having 6 wounds does not mean it must be Trygon sized. I believe that wounds should indicate what type of base the model must be on, for example, a 1W model gets a 25mm base. 2W get 40mm. 4W gets a 60mm base, and 6W gets an Oval Base. For example, a Hive Tyrant is arguably bigger than a carnifex height wise, yet it doesn't have a single wound more than that Carnifex. It is then logical to assume that my Tervigon is a gigantic hunched over creature like a carnifex is modeled, yet still has 6 wounds like a Trygon.

That is really abusing the rules of cover for that model but again its legal there is no ruling anywhere to suggest the intended size the model NEEDS to be[...]


Please show me a correct, official model of a Tervigon. Should you do so, I will gladly model all of mine to be the same size as those and will not argue a cover save. In this case, I have done the opposite and shown you as close to "official" as anyone will EVER get until a model is released. Phil Kelly, design studio employee, modeled his Tervigon using a Carnifex. I chose to do the same.

In actuality the new spider released for orks in fantasy would be the kind of model I see a Tervigon being. That size seems right.


First off, I do not have almost $450 to go out and on a whim, replace all of my Tervigons with the "better" model, nor the time or drive to. My models have never once caught flak before this for being advantageful. Also, I do not wish to spend all of that money just so I can put together and convert 7 Tervigons, then paint all of them in a little under 7 weeks simply so people do not complain about my models, because I cannot simply please everyone.

Secondly,
That model would not fit on any base in 40k, I don't think trying to put that on an oval base would work, or even be remotely close.

But I wouldn't be surprised if you get docked bad on comp if you clearly abuse the "Cover" your hive guard can give a Tervigon.


If someone wants to throw a hissy fit over my representation of a Tervigon (which last year I saw tons of Tervigons using Carnifex's, go figure) then they really need to loosen up. I'm not doing anything different than Phil Kelly, and the general internet consensus on other forums is that you should base your Tervigons off of Carnifex/Trygon parts and put it on a Large oval base. The same goes for the Tyrannofex, but guess what, that guy doesn't have a model either.

Until GW officially releases a model, your version of a Tervigon and mine can be totally different and both correct because their is no set standard for which GW thinks the model should be.
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Re: MC's + TLOS, Gants and other questions.

Postby Redbeard » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:00 pm

AdeptusBrewCityJoe wrote:Can infantry obscure 50% LOS to monstrous creatures?


Yes they can. Page 51 explains how cover is worked out for Monstrous Creatures, and does not include anything that would rule out the definition on page 21 that includes units as something that can provide cover.

That said, if your opponent does not agree that 50% of your model is obscured, you can always refer to the rule that says if it is not clear, you get a 5+ save instead. (Page 22, and repeated on the Monstrous Creatures page, 51)


Another thought I had,
When a unit assaults a Venomthrope or a unit that has a single model within 6" that unit makes a dangerous terrain test, does that mean they strike at I1 since they are technically assaulting into cover?


On page 36:

if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking...

If you have to take the test, you lower your initiative.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:18 pm

I think Joe's Tervigons are acceptable and not bending the modeling rules to gain an advantage. He is right there is no model and I remember when the 4th edition chaos codex came out with no Defiler model. All of a sudden there were all sorts of Defilers on the table. From large, squat spiders a rhino could hide to dreadnoughts with battlecannons in their chest (I still love those John).

All we know for sure is the Tervogon needs to be big. I'm sure Adepticon would throw out any Tervogon which is just an epic Hierophant, but barring that a Carnifex body type is clearly acceptable as of right now. I have a hunch the real model will be almost twice as big, but we'll see.

Now if you want to talk about modelling to an advantage what is with all those hormagants modeled like they are rebounding a missed free throw? :wink:
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:34 pm

Now if you want to talk about modelling to an advantage what is with all those hormagants modeled like they are rebounding a missed free throw? :wink:


Hoppy - Hoppy Hormagaunts!

In reality, it was the only way we could attach them to the resin bases so they'd stay without breaking 1000 times. We'd never try to claim cover for anything behind it except another unit of infantry.
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Postby YeezyMozart » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:50 am

First off I made myself very clear that it was not cheating because no model size has been established and it is legal to use a carnifex as a tervigon I DID.

How can I consider it an advantage?

I personally believe using a Carnifex COULD bring up issues that’s all. It depends on how you play with it. If you’re going to use it and be very literally on line of sight then you might be seen as using the model to your advantage but if you are giving your opponent the benefit of the doubt sometimes people would be fine with it. Honestly most people will be fine with it unless you really abuse it.

It is the same as Ork players back in the day making huge vehicles as battle wagons and using a custom force field from the hull. Before the battle wagon came out people would model battlewagons for advantage.

When defilers didn’t have a model I knew a guy who would run them as converted dreadnoughts behind buildings shooting indirect. Modeling advantage...I guess Fred beat me to this example.

Before the storm raven came out I saw people using slightly larger converted land speeders to use as the Stormraven that’s a modeling advantage

Through out my years I have see many examples of modeling for advantage and this is something that many players will not like if they play against you in a tournament.

I don’t know how Phil Kelly has anything to do with this debate, I like the guy he has made a awesome Dark Eldar codex, but why would I care about his Tervigon model choice? I never played against him and I don’t know how he plays so the fact he uses a carnifex means nothing to me..

The spider model does fit on the oval base if you wanted it to work it works great.

If you like carnifex’s that’s fine use them its all fair game honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if they do eventually release a model and it’s the same size as a carnifex. All we have to work on right now is the description in the tyranid book, the abilities it has, and stat line it carries. I just personally think he model should be huge.
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:04 am

Then we have a difference of opinion on our idea of the model. Which since there is no official model is perfectly ok.
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Postby seahawk » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:36 am

According to Mephiston's stat-line he's a Daemon Prince, but he's still marine sized.

Cassius's toughness is 6, but he's not a Trygon sized model either.

Straken has some boinked stats, but he's only human and doesn't even wear armor to justify a 3+.

The point is we can't just take stat-lines as a rule to decide what things should be what size, since they are so out of whack with some units. Images and fluff are better to a degree, as descriptions can vary wildly from story to story. What if he was using the 3rd edition tyrant guard (the better looking ones, in my opinion), they'd be more than large enough to give cover saves.

In the end what we have are the models; when there isn't an official model we go to the next source: images. In the codex a Tervigon is about the size of a Carnifex, so modelling based on the Carnifex is perfectly acceptable to me. There's no modelling for advantage there.
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Postby Crumpsky » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:49 am

Joe it all comes back to true line of sight. If your model (hive guard) blocks 50+% of your Tervigon then you get a cover save. Its that simple. Redbeard already posted the book pages we have evidence.

However one thing I noticed about 5th edition, gamers still cant understand true line of sight. Its a big part of the game and you should get a cover save if the true line of sight is obscured.
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:58 pm

Crumpsky wrote:Joe it all comes back to true line of sight. If your model (hive guard) blocks 50+% of your Tervigon then you get a cover save. Its that simple. Redbeard already posted the book pages we have evidence.

However one thing I noticed about 5th edition, gamers still cant understand true line of sight. Its a big part of the game and you should get a cover save if the true line of sight is obscured.


I tried to say that, and yet he insisted, we rolled for it and it went their way which I had no problem doing to resolve the problem quickly, but I wanted some after game explanation and delving deeper into the actual rules, which occured and I now know that if 50% it's 50% no matter what actually gives the 50%. So problem solved. :)

As for not understanding TLOS, I pretty much get that if you can see it, you can shoot it, but there are tough judgment calls to make where you can see a smidgeon of a single model so you take shots at the whole unit and end up wiping quite a few of them, it leads to oddities but they must simply be resolved amicably.


Alan,

After re-reading your post, I understand now that you weren't specifically saying that you think it's modeling for advantage, but that someone might call me on it. I appreciate the fore-warning, but should someone argue that, I'll either call a judge to rule on the model or simply argue what I have here.
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