fortune/doom into assault?

Debate all the finer points of our fine hobby, or just 4, 5 or 6 it...

Can I do it?

Yes
13
87%
No
2
13%
 
Total votes : 15

Postby Carrick » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:41 pm

I don't really see Fortune and Guide as being "cast" during the game anyway. Whilst the roll must be made ingame in order to make it a game the actual fluff (in my mind) suggests that the Fortune is a result of years of weaving the threads of fate together.
The Farseer (or whatever) places (her-)him-self here because (s)he has seen that it will make the future like this.
It might not even be that Farseer doing the casting! It might be that this character is fulfilling a million year old prophecy and standing under that sword is exactly what causes the shard of metal bouncing off the tank shot by the Warwalker to enter the Marines eyesocket at that angle. But more complex.

That is the problem with fighting Eldar. They know where your bullets are going to land generations before you are born. In their battles everything is so because it must be thus.

The reaction of Fortune/Guide is not real time but the end of a road that took more than the few minutes that passed in game-time.

I think they do a pretty good job of representing how hard that is in gaming terms. And a psychic hood messes it all up because the Prophesy couldn't see the Warp bending.

Step outside the box and stop thinking as a human. Eldar can do this because they are aliens. They can't be toughness 4 for the same reason. Stupid pointy-eared Xenos-filth!
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:16 pm

Carrick I guess it is easier to imagine, if he knows where the bullets are going years before the battle, so that makes more sense than, "He is looking into the future at this moment, and he knows how to alter it."

I'm still not convinced he can, because nowhere does it say or directly imply that he can choose to use it on a unit in close combat.
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Postby Carrick » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:27 pm

AdeptusBrewCityJoe - I do agree with your problem with the great multitasking Farseer. Avoiding a dozen stabs of a sword and whipping pistol bullets would be tough - but then suddenly turning bullets in mid-air! People can believe that if they want - you can believe anything in 40k!

Now given the Fluff reasons I have given - and the rules lawyering that has been done by others way more capable than me - can you see our position?

I understand these powers are good. Eldar powers are even more amazing after the Unofficial 40k FAQ made the stay in play psychic powers un-dispel-able. I have to play against them too. But they are a major part of their army list and they pay the points for them.

Come on, join us. Let the Eldar players have their way. They all have tiny reproductive organs.

Let them cast non-shooting psychic powers into combat?
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:33 pm

You are right, anything can be believed in 40k? How about Guardsmen dragging down a Carnifex? I've done it before, it's possible.

One thing, Fortune is a power that you have to cast, not always in play.

But fine, I'll give up, because it is obvious I cannot sway anyone to my side.

And Carrick's right, about Eldar Players. :D
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Postby Carrick » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:22 pm

AdeptusBrewCityJoe wrote:...Carrick's right...


That's all we need right there. To the presses my minions we have a headline! :lol:
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:44 pm

Carrick wrote:
AdeptusBrewCityJoe wrote:...Carrick's right...


That's all we need right there. To the presses my minions we have a headline! :lol:


Haha. :D
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Postby the_obeast » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:59 pm

yeah, fortune is not a constant power, it needs to be cast.

SO, now that that is over, what are people's views on doom in CC? At this point it appears that I can't use it unless I am in the combat already(by the way Carrick, this is more of what you were talking about with teh whole tank explosion thingy)

Would you rather fight T4 eldar or T3 eldar with a rerollable(sometimes; on one squad only) save? :?

Tiny reproductive organs? Playing eldar requires you to gamble most of your list to win, unless you're playing a complete newbie. The specialization of Eldar means that your units are good at one thing and one thing only, so once they are done with that, they are almost useless. Which is why I love warp spiders. They are most definitely the most flexible eldar unit in existence.[/rant]
:D
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:23 pm

yeah, well some of your units are cheesetastic in some sense;

Oh look Wraithguard are anti everything when it comes to shooting! WHEE! and they have Assault Guns!

Not exactly fair, when the basic trooper of almost any list can only would you on a 6.

Look you wounded me once, I got you 8 times, that sucks for you.

And why should Toughness 3 Models with Str 6 Guns be able to inflict almost 12 wounds from 5 guys? And why should they be able to hunt tanks as well without an AP? Especially when they shoot Spider Webs, do not tell me that Eldar List is "one big gamble," it is not, especially when it is nearly impossible for you to fail a psychic test, AND some psychic powers never cease to work, and a good portion of your guys are MULTI purpose.
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Postby Redbeard » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:40 pm

And a 400 point unit of 10 wraithguard dies to one leman russ shot... And they're slow, and have short-range guns. Sure, if they get in range, they can kill anything. And, they're also fairly weak in assault. They have no way to avoid armour saves, and powerfists knock them down pretty fast. If a unit of wraithguard gets close enough to shoot you, assault it next turn - odds are that even if you don't kill them, you''ll tie them up for a while, and they won't be shooting you anymore.

All armies have their cheese - it's called whatever beat you last game, right?
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:47 pm

No. Its not, why do you jump to such hasty, flaming conclusions?
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Postby Carrick » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:53 pm

Yes, I know you have to cast almost all the spells - I was just saying that if all the psychic powers were messed up by anti-psycher wargear it would really mess with Eldar's day.
All the spells this thread has been concerned with are cast - and as such have considerable risk element to them. This goes someway to softening them and reducing my concern about the "debate" as to is you can hit me in combat or not.

I don't remember the whole tank explosion thingy but I can safely assume I was right about that to. You're all very fortunate to be exposed to my genius!

I play Guard and there is noting like you have no bollocks like hiding behind more than one hundred men. And Armor 14 Tanks. What an easy army to play. Blaze away with way more guns than your opponent and then jump them in combat with superior numbers.
You know who has big balls - my woman - she plays Sisters. Now there is a tough army to master.

Back to the thread - no idea about doom - or in all honesty many of the rules at all. Sorry.
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Postby guyinthecorner » Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:08 am

AdeptusBrewCityJoe wrote:guyinthecorner, if you are going to be like that, I don't think its legal for you to play, following what you think is my logic.


I was in fact following your reasoning to point out how absurd it is to predicate a rule on a personal perception of whether or not it would be possible in the real world. As I noted, I might consider orks or eldar to be illogical armies, therefore by your own reasoning I could demand that all games against them be forfeited immediately, or at least be subject to the typical dice-off that occurs as the result of a normal rule confusion.

This is a rules discussion thread, so presumably to debate rule interpretations and resolve confusions is the reason for being here. You were furthering an interpretation based on a method of "I don't think it would be possible, so therefore I disagree." I took your method to its logical conclusion to reveal just one of a set of possibilities that could arise from it, and through its absurdity point out the fallacy of the method. That isn't flaming.

Flaming is a personal attack, such as what you made against me in claiming I shouldn't be able to play, merely because I'm criticizing your interpretive method. I'm sorry you felt personally threatened by that.
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Postby Mad Jack Deacon » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:32 am

Carrick wrote:They all have tiny reproductive organs.


I'm an Eldar player and the one thing I've found as an Eldar player is that the frank may be small, but da beans? Da beans dey gots to be LARGE!

Believe it.
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Postby the_obeast » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:12 pm

I was just saying that if all the psychic powers were messed up by anti-psycher wargear it would really mess with Eldar's day


Yes it would, seeing as all Eldar armor is at least partially dependent on psychic powers to even work- lok! my army isn't able to do anything!

especially when it is nearly impossible for you to fail a psychic test,


Umm....
Last time I looked, my psychic tests are as likely to fail as a Librarian's, and the Librarian doesn't get intant-killed by a Perils of the Warp attack...

You know who has big balls - my woman - she plays Sisters

:lol:
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:21 pm

the_obeast wrote:Quote:
especially when it is nearly impossible for you to fail a psychic test,


Umm....
Last time I looked, my psychic tests are as likely to fail as a Librarian's, and the Librarian doesn't get intant-killed by a Perils of the Warp attack...


Not true, especially if you have your runes of witnessing thing, then no it is not as likely, you get 3D6 and discard the highest, making the odds of you failing almost 0%! THATS BS! "Same as a Librarian" not even close.

If you don't believe me, here are the numbers, I believe that there are 216 different ways 3D6 can come up, the only 4 permutations that would cause you to fail, and not use the power as well, assuming that the order of which the dice turn up does not matter, my calculator says you have a near ZERO percent chance to fail. To get a "perils of the warp" there are only two permutations you can roll, 2/216, again my calculator says your probability of failing is almost zero again.

You need to start thinking in odds terms, just because your dice are shitty, doesn't mean that you "are as likely to fail as a librarian." if you roll 2D6 a librarian has 3 Different ways to fail, assuming it doesn't matter the order that the dice turn up, my calculator says I have a higher chance of failing, so this garbage of "I fail as often as a Librarian" needs to gtfo.

I took a Librarian that has Ld. 10 with a Farseer with equal Ld.
If I wanted to point out more, I would have used the STANDARD Librarian with Ld. 9, he would be even more likely to fail a psychic test at all.
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