How do you determine if an Army is Fair?

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How do you determine if an Army is Fair?

Postby TimSchmidt » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:16 am

This is a tough question, when talking to a friend the team came up with the way we where going to judge this. :D

If the ARMY you are facing could be combined into a 2000 point army and would still be a valid List.

An example, if you place a chaos player that is none Iron Warriors and each player brings Obliterators, then by this rule that would not get the extra points, because they are trying to break the general rules in the codex.


Now with that said, I realize that some people think that is the FUN of the tournament.

Just my POV
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Postby Redbeard » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:25 am

I think that's an awful way to determine it. Because, everyone has that same opportunity. It's part of what makes the team tournament different.

Think about your obliterator thing for a second. If no team could take more than one, then fully half the games that the team played would be with a coalition with none.

And, while obliterators might be on the high-powered end of the equation, using that criteria to determine whether something is 'fair' then you're also penalizing the imperial guard player who has to bring two command sections, and the ork player team with two warbosses. Given that most ork players view warbosses as overpriced and not worth the points, is it really unfair if they're using two?

I don't think there is a 'system' that you can just apply, it has to be on a case-by-case basis.
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Postby TimSchmidt » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:10 am

your missing the point;

Limited units are what we are talking about, not required units, the team would never down grade a score of a team for bringing what it is required to bring.

again just my POV.
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Postby TimSchmidt » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:15 am

another point to remember that in a team tournement you are making actually using 4000 points, which I look as two 2000 point list.
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Postby WhiteRaven » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:10 pm

It most definitely is a case-by-case, IMHO.

With the rotating lists of the team event, you can/may end up with a game or two with the limited units together and limited units apart.

Given that everyone has the chance to bend these rules and the fact it is still a competitive setting, I don't think there is too terribly much that can be construed as abusive.

For instance, we played Dakka Detachment 1...and they each had a Winged Tyrant (all 4 players). Composition wise...it definitely gave them an edge and kudos to them for finding a tough combo. Was it fun to play against? The Tyrants weren't that bad...it was the Tyrants + the Forgeworld Mines + the min/maxed rest of the list that made it not fun but not exactly abusive either.

So my point is there are definite grey area's where taking multiple limited units are going to be ok and where it isn't. The lists and combinations need to be viewed as a whole and in context. Every list combination is going to have nemisis matchups.
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Postby Shotgun » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:27 pm

I think its an entirely too simplistic approach to use.

For example, in your approach, a godzilla list would be fine...four 1,000 point zilla lists would be fine with 10 fex's. (two 2,000 point lists could have 12) But 4 1,000-point lists each with Biovores would not be fine. (2, 2,000 lists have 2)

4 1,000 point IG lists, each with demolishers and themed as a city fight force, not fine. (2,000 x 2 = 2)

4 1,000 point eldar lists with 50 harliquins, fine. (2,000 x 2 = 60)

4 1,000 point sisters with each repentia, not fine (2,000 x 2 = 2) (Infact, BLOID, this is what I want to see next year...a Repentia flagelation grounds. 80 naughty scantily clad lasses and whips)

4 1,000 point sisters with 5 exorcists, fine (2,000 x2 = 6)

Just because you are limited on a choice has no bearing on its game effectiveness and just because you aren't limited doens't mean its effectiveness doesn't increase exponentially when its numbers increase linearly. That's the key of the 'zilla list. Every monsterous creature taken increases the survivabilty of itself and its brothers. One fex...no one has a problem handling. 6 and all of a sudden half your army is ineffective because it can't hurt any of his army. But the same isn't true of Biovores.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:00 pm

Oh this is easy. I would downgrade any team that did not bring a competitive list in my mind. Anyone who brings 'fun' units or something not geared towards competing will get low comp scores.

Why?

Because some people are not interested in recreating the 419th Cadian siege of Dagobah. Some people are not interested in trying to play every unit that is underpowered. Some people ARE interested in participating in a competitive tournament game against a strong list and a pair of good tactical players. If you don't give me that, then I feel you have failed to fulfill my enjoyment of the game and you lose points.

I find people who don't play to win and claiming anyone who does is trying to win at all costs, really sad, sad people. They are hiding their insecurities behind a weaker list and tanking all those who they know are better than them.
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Postby Shotgun » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:45 pm

Fred,

It was the 420th Cadian at Dagobah, not the 419th. You are just pissed cause you didn't know something that simple.
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Postby RAMSEY » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:20 pm

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:Oh this is easy. I would downgrade any team that did not bring a competitive list in my mind. Anyone who brings 'fun' units or something not geared towards competing will get low comp scores.

Why?

Because some people are not interested in recreating the 419th Cadian siege of Dagobah. Some people are not interested in trying to play every unit that is underpowered. Some people ARE interested in participating in a competitive tournament game against a strong list and a pair of good tactical players. If you don't give me that, then I feel you have failed to fulfill my enjoyment of the game and you lose points.

I find people who don't play to win and claiming anyone who does is trying to win at all costs, really sad, sad people. They are hiding their insecurities behind a weaker list and tanking all those who they know are better than them.


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Postby Papa_Nurgle » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:46 am

I just look at my opponent.

If it's Fred or Chris, the army ain't fair.

Anyone else and I have no problems. After all, I haven't lost a game since June '06.

I really need to start playing again.
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Postby aussie » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:15 am

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:Oh this is easy. I would downgrade any team that did not bring a competitive list in my mind. Anyone who brings 'fun' units or something not geared towards competing will get low comp scores.

Why?

Because some people are not interested in recreating the 419th Cadian siege of Dagobah. Some people are not interested in trying to play every unit that is underpowered. Some people ARE interested in participating in a competitive tournament game against a strong list and a pair of good tactical players. If you don't give me that, then I feel you have failed to fulfill my enjoyment of the game and you lose points.

I find people who don't play to win and claiming anyone who does is trying to win at all costs, really sad, sad people. They are hiding their insecurities behind a weaker list and tanking all those who they know are better than them.




Here is something you and i agree on, I here alot of this crap back in iowa. Hello it is a tourny, not a scratch match bring a competive list or just dont play.
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Postby OGRE » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:34 am

Fair Unfair who cares!? I will take all comers with my 13th Company Wolves and if I lose the game, I will out drink you in the bar. After all that is where all games are settled isn't it!!
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