Point Of View (part 2)

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Postby OGRE » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:27 pm

1. Yes, The Gladiator is the place where forge world rules are allowed/should be played. The TT is for Codex rules only as far as I am concerned. If people use FW models because of the cool factor, I have no problem with that. However, that being said I feel that the options, rules etc... in the team tourney should be GW allowed rules alone. No FW rules at all. That is my "humble" opinion.

2. No, it is hard enough as it is to judge stuff without throwing that into the mix.

As a person who has helped with registration and judging in multiple GT's, Conventions and two Adepticons, it is easy to to start throwing "lawn darts" at the Volunteers/Organizers.

However, there are all kinds of excuses that people provide. Lost it, Dog ate it (No lie), simply forgot it and my favorite my printer died in the middle of printing it out (as if in this day and age you can't find another printer!). What am I as a organizer supposed to do? Turn these people away? If I turn them away will we have a odd # and thus we have to find ringer players/army (Not as easy as you may think).

It is easy to throw these "lawn darts" out there. I would humbly request that you come on the other side of the registration table, volunteer your time and experience what we deal with before making blanket statements!
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Postby GregSwanson » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:53 pm

1. No I think that FW should be only allowed in the Gladiator. If there are forgeworld models that represent models in the codex then fine. However there should be no forgeworld rules allowed in the TT or the AWC. It is hard enough for many players to keep track of all the other rules with out throwing some more odd ones in. Also I don't believe the GW does a great job of playtesting rules with its regular stuff I have a hard time believing that FW does a lot with theirs.

2. No it is hard enough to score with out adding more time and data entry for Jeff. I am sure every year the categories get modified. After all Adepticon is constantly evolving. I am sure next year it will be even better.
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Postby fenris-77 » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:49 am

1. I'm mixed about the FW thing. They make some great minis, and they do some cool extra rules and lists, but I really do doubt the playtesting side of things. Moreover, if I do doubt the playtesting and balance of FW units, then I am forced to question it's use when FW doesn't support every army. I'm not talking about the figs here, just the rules, and just for the TT and RTT.

I'm also with Raven on pointing out the prevalence of certain figs as an indicator that they were perhaps good a deal. If a FW piece is so much better than what's in the codex and the result is that just about everyone who can afford them, takes them, then I think there's a balance issue. On the other hand, it's not as though the codexes are all created equal in the first place. I guess I cool either way with a personal preference for using the GW materials for lists without the FW rules.

2. No. The attendant time used and potential abuses makes it less than optimal. I might like to seee one or two more, very specific, sportsmanship or comp related checks, but that's it. For example, a check in the TT that asks "did the opponent's combined list include duplication not normally allowed in a single list of the same type?" would be nice. Not the easiest thing to judge sometimes, but it gives a small penalty where I think one is appropriate. Something like that anyway.

*edit* I should add that the list of sports and comp questions that was used this year was already fairly comprhensive and I wouldn't be upset to play with them again.

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Postby rosco » Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:24 am

hmm kinda rough questions...

1. it's up to the judge about the fw stuff. it is definitely less headaches if the judge is familar with the fw being used and/or the player brings the rule book needed for the items he wishes to use. and when i say rulebook i don't mean copies, hand written notes, or oh my buddy has it over there followed by the phrase trust me.

2. sportsmanship before the game is a tough onemaybe a pregame checklist of does the other player have all basics(his own tape, dice, & templates) and just have that as a starting point, seeing as i've been to rtt's and faced people who had to barrow basic stuff to play.
comp doesn't really figure in now that we have that darn theme. one person may think good comp is a lot of troop choices and another person may think 2 troops and 3 heavies is better.
overall no on this one.
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Postby thehod » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:46 pm

The problem is print outs and hand outs is that there is a good possibility to alter them or to tweak a stat here and there and there is plenty of room to cheat out some gamer who has never played against them.

I still remember some guy by the name of Ford who jacked a friend of mine in Atlanta 2004 GT with a fake FAQ that said Farseers cant use fortune on their armorsaves.

Its nice to see forgeworld used but my problems are with forgeworld and not the player who decides to use them because they are an obvious no brainer. I only wished GW would spend more time balancing lists than making certain army combinations into "EASY" mode type armies.

No other tournaments trully use forgeworld so why not. A-Con staff have ways of making certain army builds not as effective in their tourneys and not too many people realize that and I applaud A-Con for forcing balanced lists through the missions.
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Postby getupandgo » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:58 am

I would give a resounding NO on the Forgeworld question. One of the (many) things I like about Adepticon is that you can use those random, eclectic (and very expensive) forgeworld items that you can't use in other tournaments. If there is something that is abused (perhaps such as the Tyranid mines, or a certain Imperial Guard tank), then ban that individual unit from play, don't make a broad sweeping judgement over all forgeworld models.
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Postby muwhe » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:34 am

Here is the other issue .. the DkoK and the Chaos Militia models are some of the best stuff GW/Forgeworld has ever put out. I want to see those on the table.

Now Mike, Scott, Jeff and all my other buddies .. hold your breath .. one of these two are my next army .. and well I have not even seen the rules yet. As someone that is taken to task for never selecting an army on the appeal of the models. I'm going to select an army on the appeal of the models. So put it on tape regardless of the rules one of these 2 armies will be my next army.

Granted currently those models could count as regular IG and LATD.
But with an updated Chaos Codex in the works before the next Adepticon the viablity of the LATD is in serious question.

Regardless I think we have some room for discussion on the matter.
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Postby OGRE » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:56 am

To me the models are not the problem. Use the models all you want, as long as they are "representing" something from the perspective codex. The problem comes up when players are specifically using the FW models for the rules and not the coolness of the models. the FW "gonad bomb" rules are much better than the normal spore mine, so who wouldn't use them. That is why the FW models rules should not be used in anything but the Gladiator!
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Postby Wild_Bill » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:44 pm

OGRE wrote:To me the models are not the problem. Use the models all you want, as long as they are "representing" something from the perspective codex. The problem comes up when players are specifically using the FW models for the rules and not the coolness of the models. the FW "gonad bomb" rules are much better than the normal spore mine, so who wouldn't use them. That is why the FW models rules should not be used in anything but the Gladiator!
OGRE


I've said if for years and continue to agree with Ogre. The problem with FW rules is that they are NOT supported by Games Workshop game development. Blah Blah Blah Forge World is owned by Games Workshop Blah Blah Blah. But they are 2 seperate divisions that don't work together. Those are rules that FW makes up to sell models. Because models sell better when you can actually use them in the game. But FW rules don't work well in competion play because they are not balanced with the rest of the 40k universe.
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Postby thehod » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:58 pm

Hell some armies dont even have much of a choice of forgeworld stuff. Dark Eldar can only resort to a flyer they will never be able to use.
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Postby PPCLI » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:36 pm

Oh Hank(MUWHE) my friend. I'll believe it when I see it on the table. If so then welcome to the good side of the Force.

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