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Postby Centurian99 » Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:45 pm

Lets be honest here folks.

Is there forgeworld stuff that's overpriced for it's effectiveness? Sure. the Leman Russ variants, particularly the conqueror and executioner come to mind.
Is there forgeworld stuff that's underpriced for its effectiveness? Absolutely. Meiotics and Griffons kick off that list.

But then again: are there things in GW codexes that are overpriced?

Absolutely not (*cough*Daemonhunters*cough*). GW codexes are perfect.

Are there things in GW codexes that are underpriced? Again, of course not (*cough*elite carnifexes*cough*). GW codexes are perfect.

Seriously, though, the problem isn't over or undercosting of units. The problem is simply one that people are unfamiliar with Forgeworld stuff. That's part of why you're required to bring the rules, so that your opponents can read them.

The reason why GW doesn't allow FW at their tournaments has nothing to do with play balance, and everything to do with business operations.

Since we're not GW, we're not bound by those limitations.
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Postby Thistle » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:01 pm

hornblower

Your post just got pointed out to me.

I feel it necessary to defend our lists. We did not use a FW Armored Company list. Our lists were Imperial Guard Codex lists. We took the Mechanized doctrine. The only FW additions we did use were the Trojans as troop choices and Autocannon Turrets on our Chimeras. The only tank in our army that had over AV 12 was the Demolisher that we used as our floater heavy. This definately wasnt armored company. We fealt that the Trojan fit our army fluff. An armored column needs its supply vehicles. I will not argue the fact that it gave us flexibility, but if you have ever tried to make a mechanized guard list at 1000 points you might think about taking a trojan as well. Of all the FW models an AV 10 on all sides vehicle armed with only a heavy bolter is probably one of the least scary models.
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Postby Centurian99 » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:18 pm

Hey Thistle...

Just admit that you saw the greatness that was Dakka Detachment One in '06, and how we used Mech Guard (including a single trojan) to take Best Team Tacticans...

;)

Congrats, by the way, on the win.

You're right...fitting mech guard into 1000 points was something of an exercise in bashing our heads against a wall. ;)
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Postby Soulmage » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:29 am

Centurian99 wrote:Seriously, though, the problem isn't over or undercosting of units. The problem is simply one that people are unfamiliar with Forgeworld stuff.


Perhaps that is some of it for some people.

But a one-shot Str 8 AP 2 ordnance template that doesn't scatter is WAAAAY underpriced at 25 points, especially since you can take 3 of them in your army.

Sure there is some fun stuff in FW books, but it doesn't really belong in a RTT type environment. That is what Gladiators are for.
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re: table assignments

Postby Dal'yth Dude » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:07 pm

Would it be possible to have the table assignments sorted by the player's last name (or team name) rather than table? That to me would make things a lot quicker for players trying to figure out where they need to go. I know my last name, and don't have to scan up to 90 rows to see where I need to go.

I wasn't too thrilled by the 'start-the-clock-when-the-postings-are-made' approach used on Sunday. I only managed to get in 3 turns with my second opponent. I don't feel that either of us was stalling, but it took nearly 25 minutes to get set up due to a variety of factors. My final opponent commented that he didn't get 6 turns in on either of his first 2 games.

I understand that time is of the essence and is a challenge for organizers and players. Having 5 minutes between the start of the game and table postings might help.

Thanks again for a great weekend of fun.
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Postby Centurian99 » Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:19 pm

Soulmage wrote:
Centurian99 wrote:Seriously, though, the problem isn't over or undercosting of units. The problem is simply one that people are unfamiliar with Forgeworld stuff.


Perhaps that is some of it for some people.

But a one-shot Str 8 AP 2 ordnance template that doesn't scatter is WAAAAY underpriced at 25 points, especially since you can take 3 of them in your army.

Sure there is some fun stuff in FW books, but it doesn't really belong in a RTT type environment. That is what Gladiators are for.


I've used cyclopses in one team tournament. Sure they're cheap. They also die if you shout loudly in their general direction, or even notice the fact that there's a single guardsman running around with a controller who's NOT an IC and so can be singled out if you get LOS to him. In the one TT where I used them, the cyclops achieved...absolutely nothing. No wait, it did kill a half dozen conscripts.

FW stuff is just as balanced as anything else GW puts out. When was the last time you saw a sisters army without the "book of unmodified LD 10 checks?" Or Eldrad, or elite carnifexes, or even freaking 30 point drop pods.

Let's get real here. One of AdeptiCon's signatures has always been the allowance of FW. As long as players who bring FW are also required to bring a copy of the rules for their opponents to review...I really don't see the problem.
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Postby ChrisTabor » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:06 pm

Actually we didn't base our list off another. I'm not kidding. I even waisted time strating to paint models we didn't use. Ok, maybe not a total waste as some day I will add them to the army. One thing Thistle missed was that some of our lists had two troop choices and entire platoons w/ applicable Chimeras. Sure the trojan was 45pts for one slot but is armor 10 and carried only a heavy bolter and each platoon for us was over 500 points. The bottom line was we followed a theme and tried to keep it balanced yet competative. In my first game it came down to the bottom of the 6th turn to squeek out a win and that was with a lucky deviation that took out a Land Raider. We where lucky in other games as well... I was afraid of a bunch of wolves with melta guns and PFs would have rolled to come in next to us, but no.
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Postby hornblower » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:20 pm

Thistle wrote:hornblower

Your post just got pointed out to me.

I feel it necessary to defend our lists. We did not use a FW Armored Company list. Our lists were Imperial Guard Codex lists. We took the Mechanized doctrine. The only FW additions we did use were the Trojans as troop choices and Autocannon Turrets on our Chimeras. The only tank in our army that had over AV 12 was the Demolisher that we used as our floater heavy. This definately wasnt armored company. We fealt that the Trojan fit our army fluff. An armored column needs its supply vehicles. I will not argue the fact that it gave us flexibility, but if you have ever tried to make a mechanized guard list at 1000 points you might think about taking a trojan as well. Of all the FW models an AV 10 on all sides vehicle armed with only a heavy bolter is probably one of the least scary models.


It's all good. I didn't realize that a 45 point Trojan was a valid option as a troop in a mechanized guard list.

That's why I thought it was an AC list.

That being said. I wish we had some 45 point troop options to fill our compulsory selections.

At least the armored fist squad (the other troop option) costs at least 150 points (squad + Chimera).

- HB
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Postby caesar » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:41 pm

Shotgun wrote:I think the best thing you could do from a paint/theme standpoint is go through the past adepticon coverage and look at what the winning armies put out there. I think its pretty well cut and dried what the adepticon standard is, I'm not sure what else there would need to be done to spell it out.


The standard for the team event really has gotten quite high and that is great. I had a blast walking around looking at all the armies that had gathered for the event.

But to say just look at the teams that won really does not help the rest of us. Unless the coverage can be matched up with the top armies so we can see them...Maybe it would be good to have the judges take a digital camera with them and snap a few pics of all the armies as they judge them. Those pics could be used latter.

Having the clock up on the projector was so great.

I would like to see more use of that during the awards. Particularly for the painting, it would be nice if you could put up a quick pic of the model when the name is announced. Most of us made a stop by the case a looked at all the cool stuff in there, but just telling us that John Smith won does not make all the connections unless you know John and saw what he put in. I just think it would be nice for the winners (and for the rest of us) to see their work on the big screen. If you took pics of the armies when they were judged (team and RTT), you could flash them up there during awards too.

Over all I had a blast and you guys run a great tournament...keep it up.
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Postby Thistle » Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:39 pm

hornblower wrote:

That being said. I wish we had some 45 point troop options to fill our compulsory selections.


I hear that...We used Trojans as compulsory selections in 2 of our 4 lists (well below average points spent on troop selections). The other 2 had Trojans in addition to our Infantry Platoon (well above average points spent on troop selections). The only time that a coalition would have less than 600 points of troops is when the two lists with the trojans only were paired together. That happened once in 8 games.
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Postby Soulmage » Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:01 pm

I've used cyclopses in one team tournament. Sure they're cheap. They also die if you shout loudly in their general direction, or even notice the fact that there's a single guardsman running around with a controller who's NOT an IC and so can be singled out if you get LOS to him. In the one TT where I used them, the cyclops achieved...absolutely nothing. No wait, it did kill a half dozen conscripts.


Even if a cyclops gets killed early, it drew fire for a turn from a squad that cost between about 6 and 20 times its point value. Definitely worth it for 25 points. Even if a cyclops never killed anything ever. . the ability to make one of your opponent's units not shoot for one turn is worth the cost alone.

If all yours did was kill a half dozen conscripts, then that's your fault. You choose when it detonates.

If it would have gotten shot up moving towards a high value target. . so what! You've just prevented that squad from shooting at a "real" target for a turn.
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Postby Centurian99 » Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:19 pm

Soulmage wrote:
I've used cyclopses in one team tournament. Sure they're cheap. They also die if you shout loudly in their general direction, or even notice the fact that there's a single guardsman running around with a controller who's NOT an IC and so can be singled out if you get LOS to him. In the one TT where I used them, the cyclops achieved...absolutely nothing. No wait, it did kill a half dozen conscripts.


Even if a cyclops gets killed early, it drew fire for a turn from a squad that cost between about 6 and 20 times its point value. Definitely worth it for 25 points. Even if a cyclops never killed anything ever. . the ability to make one of your opponent's units not shoot for one turn is worth the cost alone.

If all yours did was kill a half dozen conscripts, then that's your fault. You choose when it detonates.

If it would have gotten shot up moving towards a high value target. . so what! You've just prevented that squad from shooting at a "real" target for a turn.


THe reason it killed a half dozen conscripts was because our opponents were smart enough to surround the cyclops with six conscripts, preventing it from moving away. It was a very...interesting game, with mech guard vs. footslogger guard.

Regardless, drawing fire for a turn has some value. Usually, that's all cyclops are good for.

B
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Postby Brother Tiberius » Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:18 am

Centurian99 wrote:
Soulmage wrote:
THe reason it killed a half dozen conscripts was because our opponents were smart enough to surround the cyclops with six conscripts, preventing it from moving away. It was a very...interesting game, with mech guard vs. footslogger guard. B


Does a cyclops have an armor value?

Could it have tank shocked the conscripts?
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Postby Centurian99 » Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:34 am

A cyclops isn't a tank. Only vehicles with the "tank" characteristic can tank shock.
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Postby Brother Tiberius » Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:42 am

Centurian99 wrote:A cyclops isn't a tank. Only vehicles with the "tank" characteristic can tank shock.


Ok, just checking. (I didn't have time to walk my lazy arse downstairs and get my IA out...)
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