Adepticon Aftermath

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Postby Mad Jack Deacon » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:07 pm

Soulmage wrote:Even with sports scores many teams at the Adepticon TT can't keep their mouths/attitudes in check during the game, even though they visibly struggle with it.

This happens all the time in professional sports too. NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, Boxing, Soccer (or Football as the rest of the misguided world calls it) can you point to any of them and say "No one in these organizations has acted in an unsportsmanlike mannner." You can't. Well I guess you could, but I could be unsportsmanlike and call you Mr. Liar McLiarson.

As long as this is a competitive event, you're going to have competitive behaviour. I do disagree with your statement that "many teams" struggle with this. Just like everything else, it's really a few bad apples. And maybe physically ejecting a few examples will remind those on the line to take a step or two back in the right direction.
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Postby skkipper » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:23 pm

I did make a mistake. I should have stated at the start of the game I am tanking their sportsmanship scores and comp because we are friends with sparky. Then given them full marks.

Because we are the Underminers.

We might be beneath you but nothing is beneath us.

the funny thing is we were not the only team to give less them perfect marks to CB. Just the only team with the balls to stand up and say why we gave them.
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Postby flatlanderboss » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:32 pm

And that somehow makes it better? Having the balls to say you gave them the crappy scores? Wow.
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Postby CaptKaruthors » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:34 pm

the funny thing is we were not the only team to give less them perfect marks to CB. Just the only team with the balls to stand up and say why we gave them.

Um...yeah... saying it on an internet forum really constitutes having a set....whatever. :roll: Trust me, I'd be more understanding of your reasonings if you would have had the "balls" to stand up and say it either during, or after the game and not on an internet forum. Instead, you chose to hide behind a facade of niceity during the game, chipmunk us, and then proceed to share it with the internet community like it's some kind of funny joke.

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Postby RAMSEY » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:41 pm

I've said it once and I'll say it again.

People tend to be one sided when they are having their butts handed to them.
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Postby skkipper » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:42 pm

wow you guys get angry!! see you next year!!
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Postby muwhe » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:48 pm

Chris, Erich, Jen ..

We have said all we can say .. I let my record as a player stand..

Further comments are not going to change the course of this discussion.

Harry .. Me type A? I guess I'm right there with you. :D

I'd rather focus on the positives of Adepticon.

He filled out his sheet .. End of story.
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Postby Inquisitor_Malice » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:05 pm

Ok, I've been handling a major family emergency over the past few days, but believe that this is important enough for me to take time to post.

For one - I know all of the players on both Casus Belli (CB) and the Underminers. Our team has been fortunate to play against CB three out the four years that we have attended AdeptiCon. We have been fortunate because we always seem to gain more points due to a higher winning %. :P I also say fortunate because we have had some of the best games against a very worthy opponent both tactically and sportingly.

I want to highlight mentioning 'sportingly'. In our games, we have not always agreed with CB on different parts of the game. However, because of our and CB's tournament experience, we are able amicably work through various situations without issue. This tournament experience is invaluable for handling these situations.

I personally do not agree with some of the comments that have been posted by Skkipper. Some of them have been very distasteful. I believe good gamemanship should not only come from your opponents, but also from your own team.

In the end, it was their decision to mark the scores the way they did. Based on their views, I admit that 2 Oblit 2 Quit 2 could have received the same scores because I know our army was on the same scale of power in design. However, our opponents Rocky Mountatin Cavaliers, /Spit, CB and FN Mournival were gracious enough not to tank our scores. I thank them for that. I also thank all of the teams we faced off against for providing great games throughout Saturday.

Overall, I would gladly play Casus Belli again every year. They are great opponents and sporting players. I personally want to play them every year just to eliminate one more major competitor and not allow them to run a muck in the crowd. :)
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Postby Rhysk » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:01 am

Hey all,

It’s Jen! I can’t remember my own login so I’m using Chris’s. That said, if you don’t like what I’m about to post, please don’t snip at Chris, let it come to me.

Before diving in, big thanks to Jeff and Mathias and Hank for the countless hours you put into this, and to everyone else who came and helped out/played, you all made it a terrific weekend!

Like Hank said, when all is said and done it was a fun weekend and I’m glad I was there. 3 out of our 4 games were pretty good, and it was cool to see the time and effort that was put forth into so many lists and display boards, etc.

That said, however, I feel I should comment on this thread.

I don’t feel that the sportsmanship that we got dinged was deserved. Overall, we lost 7 points (if you leave out the additional points that could be earned with players choice picks), and 4 of those points came from 1 team, per their own admission. I’m fairly certain I know where the other 3 came from. But the point is we lost 4 points that I question losing from that first team. If you look at the 7 questions that were answered, aside from the last one about voluntarily playing the team again because you were unhappy about having drawn a hard team, I’m not sure what we would have lost out on. We came prepared, we played the game efficiently and kept things on schedule, we were congenial and tried to ensure our opponents were enjoying themselves, we had few (if any) rules questions and they were all resolved without problem as far as I am aware. And when the game was done, all 4 people on the other side of the table were smiling, shook our hand, and said “Good game.” So like I said, with the exception of the very last question, I’m uncertain what else we got knocked down for. I’m sorry that you had such a poor time playing us, but it sounds more like you created that atmosphere for yourselves. Instead of enjoying the challenge of playing a good team with good players, you 4 chose to (and forgive me if this sounds melodramatic) embrace your bitterness about having to play a hard team. But playing good teams should be your goal at something like this. There is no easy way to the top, hon. You have to put the blood and sweat and tears into it, and picking at someone for giving effort that you didn’t is a pretty disappointing attitude. I thank you for your honesty, but I must disagree with your reasoning.

I think we are a strong, aggressive team, but not so aggressive that we were inappropriately d*icks or that our personalities should have taken away the enjoyment of the game. I played on the table with Hank, and I think that’s the table that you played on Skipper. Did you really think my behavior took something away from the game, or Hank’s behavior? Even Chris and Erich on the other table are easy going, they don’t taunt or rub it in a players face when they’re winning. We're all there to have fun. I guess for all that you find it unfair that you had to play a previous championship team from years before, I think it’s unfair that we essentially got our sportsmanship scores tanked for that reason.

I won’t comment much on comp, although I think our comp was also unfairly dinged. Checkmake brought the uber form of our army and got perfect comp, so it just goes to show that leaving comp scores completely up to your opponent isn’t going to render the fairest of scores because of all of the subjectiveness. I liked it better in previous years when part of the judging was based on comp and your opponents could add additional points to it. The unfortunate reality of leaving it up to the opposing team is that a poor ending for them potentially means crappy comp scores for you. When you have multiple teams with the same army you would expect to see similar scores for comp, but there was a fairly wide variety among the nid lists. And I think the points we lost were mostly because those teams didn’t want to see us win again, not because our army was unfair. Like I told Chris and Erich when it was all said and done, next year we bring the big bad ass beat stick army and earn our crappy comp score rather than try to create a more balanced list that gets it’s comp score kicked in anyway.

I thought that we made a good faith effort to make certain that our opponents were having a good time. I know someone brought up that Type A Type B Army scenario, and intimated that CB is a type A team, but I think that we put forth a good effort to ensure that our opponents are enjoying the game, win or lose, so I think we are more of a Type B team. We want to encourage new players to continue with the game, because that adds diversity and makes it more interesting. And we want the veterans back because they bring wisdom and tradition. And I don’t think seeding would make things any more fair. You just end up pitting the championship teams from years past against each other and they end up knocking each other out of contention to give the little guys who are new a chance, which doesn’t happen in the end because their inexperience is going to be their waterloo. The veteran teams are going to end up going at it anyway, our 2nd and 3rd games were both against 2 previous TT champs, and our last game was against the Gladiator champ from the night before. So even playing a soft team in round 1, our last 3 matches were balls to the walls hard core in your face games, and the top 5 teams have all been in the top 5 at the dance before.

All in all I had a fun weekend. Exhausting, but fun. But some of the outcomes bother me, not because we didn’t win (if we’d made all our comp and sportsmanship we still would have only come in 2nd), but because I think that people let their emotions get the best of them and weren’t entirely objective in awarding points for things. I’m sure it seems HILARIOUS to have a girl chide a bunch a guys for being emotional, but that’s how I feel mates!

All I can say is this….if you’re coming back to the Con next year come prepared. You never know what’s going to happen or who you’re going to play, and don’t let your match ups be the deciding factor in awarding points, base it on the game itself. I’ll say this much, I would have LOVED to have severely reduced the points awarded to our 2nd match up because there were some serious problems there, including obvious intentional stalling until the judges came by and said something. But at the end of the game, we could only take off 2 points because they met the minimum criteria for the other 5. And because we did ultimately finish the game on time, we didn’t even take the point away for that so we gave them 6 out of 7. Despite our emotional response to that team, we were still able to objectively score them, to do otherwise would not have been fair based on the criteria.

Thanks for letting me spout off, see you all next year!
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Postby tcmd » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:13 am

I had the good fortune of playing Hank and Jen. Enjoyed the game and enjoyed the view. I'd call foul on the distractions, but you'd have to put Jen in a box for her to not be distracting. Maybe that's why we only got through 4 turns.

One of my team-mates on the other table had some complaints about what he thought were questionable rules interpretations and rubber-ruler syndrome(so i know you lost some points there), but I had no such issues. Great game, great time.
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Postby skkipper » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:23 am

yeah after further review.
the other half of our team gave you full marks so somebody else tanked you.
only down 2 on sportsmanship from game one and the 3 on comp.
i stand by my rankings if i gave you full marks i would be cheating everbody else.
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Postby Papa_Nurgle » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:38 am

Putting Jen in a box - sounds interesting.

Whining about scores - not interesting.

At least no one was running around waving underwear in the air offending people this year.

If the only thing to complain about is that CB got hosed in some scores - then sounds like a good, fair tournament.

I have yet to go to a tournament where everyone is happy.

You've had your taste of Adepticon and can choose to return - I hear there will be bare bellies next year (possibly green) - or not. Adepticon is not for everyone. Some very good hobbiest choose not to attend just for the competition reason. There are a lot of other people out to win and that means everyone but me is going to be disappointed.

From my brief, quiet visits it looked like you had the good mix of most people having fun, the regular complainers complaining, and the new folks either in awe or shock.

And Kari, Jen, and Ogre were there. (Yeah, I think I just put Ogre in the same category with Jen and Kari - hope he can stand the embarrassment).

Anyway, I have to go back to painting orks, in kilts.
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Postby Rhysk » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:54 am

Fair enough Skip, we can agree to disagree, I respect your opinion even if I see things differently. Just remember, alls fair in love and war, if someone uses the same theory against you some day remember this thread!

And fair enough to TCMD, we had a good time on our table. I didn't see much of the other game, so I can't comment either way, but I do apologize if it seemed something wasn't kosher. Don't know if your team members said anything to them, but feel free to in future if the same issue arises with movement/interp, I know Chris and Erich are always happy to remeasure/discuss rules.

And keep in mind my comments weren't just in relation to my team, but to the tourney as a whole. Over all I had a great time and enjoyed my opponents. BTW, I don't mind hiding in a box if you all like, so long as Kari can be in there with me. Although that's a whole new distraction, what with all the giggling and heavy breathing that's going to come out of it!

It's going to be impossible to make everyone happy, that's for sure. But I'm happy so long as I can walk away and say I played a fair game and had fun opponents. But I will get my name on that axe, people! It will happen, and I shall be Queen Nerd! My crown is sitting in a box waiting to grace my perfectly coifed hair :lol:
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Postby OGRE » Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:53 pm

Papa, no offense taken.
Anytime I can be uttered in the same breath of the Adepticon Cuties I AM A O.K. WITH IT!!! I however will not be rubbing your belly next year no matter how much beer you feed me!
Trample the weak! Hurdle the Dead!
Eldar the other white meat!!
Cry Havoc and let slip the SPACEWOLVES!!
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Postby Papa_Nurgle » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:19 pm

That gets said every year Ogre, yet the belly somehow still gets rubbed...

When the beer stops flowin'
The belly stops rubbin'
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